A discussion: Can swingers cheat?

[Billygoat 443]

Cheating happens in any aspect of life at a wide variety of levels.  Day to day life, education, work/careers, relationships you name it…..it happens.

 

An interesting conversation recently at a gathering (side note: those involved varied greatly in ages, background and experience in the lifestyle) concerning cheating.  It started with a couple active in the lifestyle for just under two years and a meet up they thought they had planned well with an interested couple.  Typical result the male showed up and the wife fell ill but said he could go.   After dinner and drinks they all decided to play as a threesome.   The evening ended well.  After a few weeks past they figured out during conversations with the other couple that the wife, although a swinger did not know her husband had met up with them.

 

This started a rather big debate of cheating as a swinger and just where are the lines drawn when it comes to defining cheating.  I have to say that although all had issues with cheating it was surprising the variations of what each couple and within that individual thoughts of what they considered cheating and possible response to being cheated on.  Also of the dozen or so adults all but a couple had experienced being cheated on while in a relationship at some point in their lives.  A few lost relationships as a result.

 

Of the many and varied definitions offered and the wide variety of circumstances I can boil it down to a couple of points.  If you are in the lifestyle at any level can you cheat?  Can you be cheated on?  Absolutely, yes.  

How do you define cheating or being cheated on?  Well that is a loaded question with far to many variables.  But I think after listening and participating in this lively conversation I have come up with it:  Any activity, conversation, act or meeting that you are not willing to discuss prior to, during or after.  That you take steps mild or dramatic to conceal or hide.  If it where known would it cause negative results, hurt feelings….great loss…..well that is cheating.

 

Seems a bit simplistic but most every individual, no matter as a couple, had variations that even differed than their SO what they considered cheating and what was workable or a deal killer.

 

what are your thoughts? 

[NC_Seniors 518]

“

4 hours ago, Billygoat said:

Any activity, conversation, act or meeting that you are not willing to discuss prior to

To me, that’s cheating … during and after too late.

[GoldCoCouple 4,065]

Swinging is done with your partner or your partners full knowledge and approval. It's done in the light with honesty, love and respect. Cheating is done in secret, without your partner or their knowledge. It's done in the dark with lies and deception.

 

Can swingers cheat: of course, but once they start cheating, they stop being swingers and start being cheaters.

[TeamCalgary 168]

Very interesting topic Billygoat.

Fully agree with GoldCoCouple; cheating involves deception/dishonesty. 

 

With regards to the scenario posed; the couple agreed to a certain environment (meeting another couple). 

When that environment/context is changed, it is our process as a couple to withdraw our consent to participate. 

In our experience, this is usually how these last minute, "oh, my wife can't make it tonight" situations turn out.

Either he is cheating, is actually a single male, and/or the "wife" in question does not actually exist. 

We have been put in this situation once and simply decided not to participate; as it turned out,

it was a single male who was posing a couple. 

 

Deception of any sort is kryptonite in the LS world; everything it touches melts. 

[lcmim 1,081]

Billygoat

 

In a general sense your definition works  on two levels to prevent and on one to repair if possible.

 

 Before and during , If you have not  or will not be willing to divulge it gives the opportunity to stop.

After, if you are not willing to discuss then you believe you have.

 

In addition,  if damage has been done then your SO believes that you have. Their perception is all.

The questions then are why and how? 

Why did it happen and How can the damage be repaired , if at all.

 

The definition fails a bit in the particular sense. The trigger is always specific to the couple,

in your example , how the other couple play by their mutual agreement.

( Are they "open" with a "don't ask, don't tell "  clause in the agreement? )

If it is so then your definition  works. No cheating was involved

If it is not so, then there is work to be done.

Only the other couple knows for certain.

 

In either case the couple in the threesome are not culpable  and may actually be victims.

 

To avoid this type of scenario our personal rule would have one or the other of us calling the "sick" individual with sympathy and the offer of chicken soup, before any play took place.

 

All in all though, your definition is true in all areas that it addresses and covers more areas than most.  I cannot think of any way to edit it that would add and not subtract from it.

 

Well done.

[AndrewandAnn 360]

19 hours ago, GoldCoCouple said:

Swinging is done with your partner or your partners full knowledge and approval. It's done in the light with honesty, love and respect. Cheating is done in secret, without your partner or their knowledge. It's done in the dark with lies and deception.

 

Can swingers cheat: of course, but once they start cheating, they stop being swingers and start being cheaters.

Interesting discussion.

 

While I agree with you in spirit, we also need to consider different cultural mores and the fast-changing relationship landscape.

 

Cheating doesn't necessarily involve secrecy. That's rooted in a somewhat idealized Westernized perception of marriage and what are accepted standards of behavior. However, even in the West, there are plenty of relationships where one spouse, or sometimes both, have extramarital affairs with the knowledge of the other. In these cases, the cheating is simply tolerated as part of the arrangement. Actually, in these instances, can we even describe the behavior as "cheating"? Melinda Gates, for instance, knew her billionaire husband Bill had been playing around on the side for decades.

 

Looking beyond the West, sex outside of marriage is particularly common among certain Asian, Middle Eastern, and Mediterranean cultures where marriage is seen more as a formal business and/or family arrangement rather than a romantic and sexual one. In Japan, for instance, they still follow a matchmaking tradition that is more or less rooted in the ancient practice of "omiai" where families and friends play matchmaker for single adults. Japan has an entire industry called "nakodo" where single adults contact marriage agencies that act as go-betweens. The resulting relationships are quite often either entirely sexless, or sex is performed for pro-creation purposes only. Still needing sexual gratification, it is common and accepted for men (and even women) to seek their sexual pleasure in extramarital relationships. Not surprisingly, one global sex study found married Japanese respondents had both the lowest frequency of sex and the lowest overall sexual satisfaction.

 

Sadly, the United States ranks only slightly above Japan. That might be why Americans consume so much porn! Lol! 

 

And the very definition of marriage and relationships is changing, even in the West. One report says somewhere between 70-80% of all children born in Sweden and Iceland are to unmarried mothers.

 

Strange times, indeed.

 

 

 

[GoldCoCouple 4,065]

Since swinging usually involves your partner (note, I did not say husband or wife, just partner), it also implies that there is already a sexual relationship taking place. As pointed out, there are countries and regions where marriage is more of a 'business arrangement' that completely or mostly lacks the sexual component. It also explains why swinging is not as prevalent in those areas (as in Japan). Swinging also involves a very high level of trust, respect, and communication...all things that cheating lacks or violates. While swinging also involves a certain 'mindset' that most people just aren't 'wired' for (being raised and pressured by society that monogamy is the ONLY option), it also requires a exceptional level of trust, respect and communication that most relationships also lack. One could say that swingers are 2 percenters.

[NoAngels 333]

I’m a Cheater! My wife is a Cheater! 
I’m sorry if I offend the Morality Police. 
Why is cheating any different from swinging? People cheat to have sex with others, people swing to have sex with others. 
I am reading posts since I joined where people are choked, abused, peed on, gang banged, picking up strangers at bars, having sex with strangers at clubs, going to resorts where sex with others is normal. Who are the men gangbanging your wife? Who are the men you picked up at the hotel? Are all Unicorns single. When people go to a swingers party how do you know that the couple you met were not two cheaters hiding as a married pair? 
I cheated with women who were cheating too. Look up the statistics of people who have had extramarital sex. Why would you expect every swinger to be faithful. 
My wife never cheated before she caught me cheating. She could have thrown me out, divorced me and caused more harm to our family. Instead she accepted that we just be open to having affairs. My affairs happened on business trips, she didn’t have that opportunity to search for men. She went the internet route, Ashley Madison. AM has 70,000,000 subscribers, more women than men, all cheaters. How many people are swingers? Thinking much less. 
I didn’t know how she met men, where she went, what she did and had no desire to watch her have sex with others. If she was like me, I wanted her to enjoy the way I did, a new partner, it’s exciting to have Strange. I worried about her safety, I do love her. I worried about disease, we were still having sex at home. As we continued Cheating we no longer had to hide our cheating. I never asked specifics and never offered my stories. 
I am happy my wife met other cheaters, men married with families, men looking for extra fun not for love, not for relationships. They had to be safe with home relationships at risk, careful of STDs. At this point my wife has cheated with more cheaters, I am not having the opportunity she has. Some of the men she has met have showered with gifts, and rewarded her financially. She isn’t asking for anything from the men, just respectful sex. 
More recently we have had what could be called swinging, it’s exciting, it’s fun, you all know that. I can’t say it more fun than the cheating, it’s different. My wife agrees the sex is different alone with a man, nobody watching, something I say being alone with a cheating woman. Being together with others is not bad, I do enjoy seeing my wife sexually satisfied, a thing I don’t think about when she meets men alone. 
Cheating is just another morality issue. People cheat in many facets of their lives, not just in marital sex. 

[lcmim 1,081]

Simply put cheating is NOT playing by the rules.

Swinging makes extra marital sex PART of the rules.

[NoAngels 333]

58 minutes ago, lcmim said:

Simply put cheating is NOT playing by the rules.

Swinging makes extra marital sex PART of the rules.

Whose rules? Who makes up these rules?

[AndrewandAnn 360]

9 minutes ago, NoAngels said:

I’m a Cheater! My wife is a Cheater! 
I’m sorry if I offend the Morality Police. 
Why is cheating any different from swinging? People cheat to have sex with others, people swing to have sex with others. 
I am reading posts since I joined where people are choked, abused, peed on, gang banged, picking up strangers at bars, having sex with strangers at clubs, going to resorts where sex with others is normal. Who are the men gangbanging your wife? Who are the men you picked up at the hotel? Are all Unicorns single. When people go to a swingers party how do you know that the couple you met were not two cheaters hiding as a married pair? 
I cheated with women who were cheating too. Look up the statistics of people who have had extramarital sex. Why would you expect every swinger to be faithful. 
My wife never cheated before she caught me cheating. She could have thrown me out, divorced me and caused more harm to our family. Instead she accepted that we just be open to having affairs. My affairs happened on business trips, she didn’t have that opportunity to search for men. She went the internet route, Ashley Madison. AM has 70,000,000 subscribers, more women than men, all cheaters. How many people are swingers? Thinking much less. 
I didn’t know how she met men, where she went, what she did and had no desire to watch her have sex with others. If she was like me, I wanted her to enjoy the way I did, a new partner, it’s exciting to have Strange. I worried about her safety, I do love her. I worried about disease, we were still having sex at home. As we continued Cheating we no longer had to hide our cheating. I never asked specifics and never offered my stories. 
I am happy my wife met other cheaters, men married with families, men looking for extra fun not for love, not for relationships. They had to be safe with home relationships at risk, careful of STDs. At this point my wife has cheated with more cheaters, I am not having the opportunity she has. Some of the men she has met have showered with gifts, and rewarded her financially. She isn’t asking for anything from the men, just respectful sex. 
More recently we have had what could be called swinging, it’s exciting, it’s fun, you all know that. I can’t say it more fun than the cheating, it’s different. My wife agrees the sex is different alone with a man, nobody watching, something I say being alone with a cheating woman. Being together with others is not bad, I do enjoy seeing my wife sexually satisfied, a thing I don’t think about when she meets men alone. 
Cheating is just another morality issue. People cheat in many facets of their lives, not just in marital sex. 

Morality police? Sorry. You're misinterpreting things. Policing implies I or someone else wants to control or limit your behavior, none of which is true. As a dyed-in-the-wool libertarian, I couldn't care less how you live your life--with the caveats that whatever you do is legal and among consenting adults who are of sound minds (more or less... lol.)

 

However, cheating does not square up with my personal moral compass. And it doesn't pass my common sense sniff test. Why? Cheating is not a victimless pursuit. Maybe you don't care about the spouse of the person with whom you are cheating? Maybe you don't care about the potential domestic train wreck that you are leaving in your wake? Or, maybe you like to ignore the possibility that someday that locomotive comes crashing right into your world when the jealous spouse goes on the offensive, beginning with you?

 

Here's my calculus: Is all that negativity, bad Karma, and potential drama, worth it just so I can put another notch on the bedpost? No thanks. I'd rather exercise a little good judgement, impulse control, and discretion, and reckon my life is far less complicated for it.

 

But, if being a serial cheater is what rocks your boat, rock on. I sincerely hope you're fortunate enough never to run into a guy like this one: https://www.the-sun.com/news/1538323/husband-forced-wife-decapitate-younger-lover/

 

By the way, your definition of swinging is based upon a caricature. My wife and I have never patronized a swingers club; have never participated in a gang bang and find the notion repulsive; don't have sex with singles; have 100% degree of confidence in the identities of the persons with whom we swing; are as confident as medical science allows that our partners are free of STDs or similar communicable diseases.

 

Lastly, you may want to read certain posts containing grandiose stories of gangbangs, anonymous sex, and other such outlandish activities, with one eye toward disbelief. The overwhelming majority of these posts are rooted in pubescent fantasy, not reality. 

 

[lcmim 1,081]

37 minutes ago, NoAngels said:

Whose rules? Who makes up these rules?

Do I really need to explain,?

 

Each couple always inevitably agree on rules for everything, from which way the toilet paper goes on, to what they a see as faithful to their commitment to each other.

[NoAngels 333]

I cheated on my wife which made her a victim and pained. It caused plenty of stress in our marriage and could have caused a possible separation. My cheating was cheating by opportunity, women I met were more than eager to join me in my hotel rooms. I’m not aware of the pain they caused their spouses, no husband came to decapitate me. 
My wife’s cheating was with my knowledge, as strange as it sounds it saved our marriage. Im sure she caused pain in some of the marriage’s of the men she met, those problems she may have caused were there before she met those men. 70MM people on social group that is based on extramarital sex, how many others cheat that are not on there, three times that maybe. Swinging is just another branch of acknowledgment in cheating. To some swinging is swapping with another couple, to others it meeting another person to join you for sex, for some it’s going to a lifestyle resort or cruise, some swing together in a room, some separate rooms. It is your comfort level, your morality, different stroke for different folks. 
We don’t only cheat, we have met people together in the true sense of swinging and have met some extremely great people, people we can now think of as friends, people who have led us to things we could do as solo players. Swinging with couples is just another facet of our sexual life. I would never say sex cheating is for everyone, it has definitely led to much pain and I would think is a leading cause of breakups and divorce and endless one parent families. It has worked for us in the end though it had caused pain. 
We have our rules, you have yours. 

[EastInWest 1,524]

14 hours ago, lcmim said:

Each couple always inevitably agree on rules for everything, from which way the toilet paper goes on, to what they a see as faithful to their commitment to each other.

I, too, remember the phase of making a home with Mrs. E in which I was accused of putting the toilet seat lid up on purpose to annoy her.

 

It didn't help that she had taped a sign to the toilet, which I genuinely did not see because it was hidden behind the raised toilet seat lid.

 

16 hours ago, NoAngels said:

I’m a Cheater! My wife is a Cheater! 
I’m sorry if I offend the Morality Police.

I'm not 100% sure I've understood what you're upset about here, but it sounds like you feel accused or insulted that people frown on cheating because you feel that it's a category that includes you.

 

I can kind of understand that. As a single guy in my 20s, there were women I probably should not have screwed. Women with boyfriends who were walking the neighborhood trying to find them (and clearly thought they knew where they might find her), married women who claimed they were getting a divorce (imaginary attorney), etc. The world is full of edge cases in which people deceive each other and/or deceive themselves.

 

You're also right that more than a little casual sex happens on business trips, with people who aren't even pretending to be single. Then there's the guys who don't even bother to be subtle about picking up hookers at the hotel bar during the trade show. That little handbag isn't full of casino chips.

 

With that said, I think it's strongly implied in "swinging" that it differs from "cheating" in an effort to avoid all that potential drama and build trust within a group, even if that group may or may not necessarily include the third invited to join. It's definitely possible to breach that trust. If the two of you know what the other are doing (now), and accept it in each other, I think calling yourselves "cheaters" and feeling judged by criticism of cheating may be unfair to yourselves. Maybe I've misunderstood.

[lcmim 1,081]

It seems that the OP does not care to make the distinction between ethical an not ethical nonmonogamy.

 

We fall into the swinger = ethical camp.

[NoAngels 333]

1 hour ago, EastInWest said:

I'm not 100% sure I've understood what you're upset about here, but it sounds like you feel accused or insulted that people frown on cheating because you feel that it's a category that includes you.

I’m sorry if I come off as upset, I don’t feel accused, what bothers me is people judging others based on their own morality. All the experts that will say what is right or wrong in what others do, don’t do this or that but this is fine. People who will find a dark slant on anything they don’t approve of. ie, friends, all types of fetishes. 
I will tell you of a positive that my wife’s playing has brought us, fetishes I would never tried (no choking) or even have thought of. When cheaters meet on a cheaters site they are looking for new things and are less afraid to try new things with like minded cheaters. The side that is worrisome is a cheater not knowing when the other says no, she means it. 

 

1 hour ago, EastInWest said:

You're also right that more than a little casual sex happens on business trips, with people who aren't even pretending to be single.

My cheating centers around business trips and trade shows. Last week I was at a trade show, something that has been missing in life for the last two years. There is a woman, married, that I met years ago at a trade show. We went out with a group as normal at trade shows. That first group dinner years ago, led to late night drinks which led to going back to my room. We are in the same business and were discreet making sure we didn’t go up together. I figured I wasn’t her first extramarital fling. Fast forward, we are friends now, we spent two nights together showing family pictures, telling personal stories and doing what both of us enjoy. 
My wife has seen pictures of this woman and knew I would be seeing her at the show. Best part I didn’t have to hide my call home while in bed with this woman. 

 

1 hour ago, EastInWest said:

I think calling yourselves "cheaters" and feeling judged by criticism of cheating may be unfair to yourselves. Maybe I've misunderstood.

I called myself a cheater to make a point, not out of guilt, to me all swingers are cheaters, not adhering to the vows they took. I don’t judge swingers as anything more than people expanding their sexual life. 

[GoldCoCouple 4,065]

Quote

Swinging is done with your partner or your partners full knowledge and approval. It's done in the light with honesty, love and respect. Cheating is done in secret, without your partner or their knowledge. It's done in the dark with lies and deception.

You cheated, she caught you (cheating is done in secret, without your partner or their knowledge), then instead of one of you leaving, you both started, in a very unconventional way, swinging. While it's very rare that this happens, it looks like it works for the two of you and we're not ones to say it's wrong as long as it is working for you both.

 

Neither Ms Gold or myself have taken any vows that stated we would 'forsake all others' (or anything else along that line, we've been very careful and specific about this) therefore we have not violated anything. When we do play with other couples (only couples) it is always together and in the same room. We all are in agreement that there is no 'cross couple' communication (f/f okay, m/m okay, m/f/m/f okay but no m/other f or other m/f communication) just to make sure that everyone knows what is going on and being said. Also, we have an agreement that if either one of us says no to anything (not wanting to do something, not being interested in another couple, wanting to stop swinging, whatever) then we both are saying no with questions asked. We enjoy living in the light.

[EastInWest 1,524]

27 minutes ago, GoldCoCouple said:

Neither Ms Gold or myself have taken any vows that stated we would 'forsake all others' (or anything else along that line, we've been very careful and specific about this) therefore we have not violated anything.

For the record, I've never understood that vow to mean that, even in a vanilla context, although I've never deeply researched it.

 

My understanding is that it's a vow to practice self-sacrificial love toward your spouse to the exclusion of all others, even if you might wish to do otherwise. It isn't just about sex, but about extended family conflict, job duties, and more. The strength of the marital bond is to be placed above all other things in this world.

 

This isn't meant to cast doubt on conventional interpretations of fornication and adultery, nor is it meant to be a legalistic nuance. Just to point out that I think most people on this forum take their partner's welfare very seriously and are quite happy to sacrifice swinging relationships at the first sign it's not enjoyable to their spouse, which is both the spirit and the letter of the vow as I've always understood it.

Edited January 13, 2022 by EastInWest

[lcmim 1,081]

2 hours ago, NoAngels said:

 

 

I called myself a cheater to make a point, not out of guilt, to me all swingers are cheaters, not adhering to the vows they took. I don’t judge swingers as anything more than people expanding their sexual life. 

 

Our vows were pretty much traditional. We do not believe we have broken them. You see it otherwise.

That comes because we see the meaning in different ways.

 

You may see the 'Forsaking all others ' part as related to an act.(sex).  You are not alone in this perspective.

We see it as always having the others interests at heart before all others including ourselves. 

 

Consider two couples :

The first remain totally sexually faithful, but get distracted by career, religious fanaticism, greed, to the point that the "Us" is subservient.

The second are swingers but the "Us" is always in the forefront in all areas.

Which is remaining faithful?

 

The definition of terms is important in this part of the discussion.

Edited January 13, 2022 by lcmim

[PeterJ 940]

4 hours ago, NoAngels said:

"I called myself a cheater to make a point, not out of guilt, to me all swingers are cheaters, not adhering to the vows they took." 

No Angels, you are of course free to give whatever name you wish (you’ve chosen "cheaters") to the set of behavioral and emotional commitments you and your wife have mutually agreed upon. But by now I would expect you would realize that to essentially every other person on this forum, while the behaviors you’ve espoused are well with this group’s norms, the term you’ve chosen use to describe that set of behaviors and values is completely antithetical to how everyone else here uses that term. And yet you seem not to. I wonder why that is?

[AndrewandAnn 360]

13 hours ago, PeterJ said:

... while the behaviors you’ve espoused are well with this group’s norms...

You couldn't possibly be more mistaken.

 

This kind of behavior is far outside of established lifestyle norms.

 

We don't know anyone who describes swinging as having illicit affairs with people in other relationships.

 

He uses the term "cheater" because that's what he and his wife are doing. By his own admission, his actions have been destructive to his own relationship and the relationships of others.

 

Theirs is a life based upon an ever expanding web of deceit and lies. We all know where that leads. 

 

But, they are certainly free to pursue their own ends.

 

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" -- Phillip K. Dick

[BillyandDebbie 301]

Maybe I’m the only one who felt I cheated in front of my wife. I had her blessing and assurance it wasn’t cheating, yet life and upbringing gave me doubts on the correctness of sex with another woman. I think most people have cheated in other aspects of their life and some even cheer on people who lie on taxes, business or finding ways to get more and never think it’s cheating the way being untrue in sex. 

[lcmim 1,081]

51 minutes ago, BillyandDebbie said:

Maybe I’m the only one who felt I cheated in front of my wife. I had her blessing and assurance it wasn’t cheating, yet life and upbringing gave me doubts on the correctness of sex with another woman. I think most people have cheated in other aspects of their life and some even cheer on people who lie on taxes, business or finding ways to get more and never think it’s cheating the way being untrue in sex. 

Judging one own personal integrity is one of the most difficult , personal, and important facets of the LS.  Often it is overlooked in the conversations here, unfortunately.

Good for you in struggling with it.

[BillyandDebbie 301]

18 hours ago, lcmim said:

Judging one own personal integrity is one of the most difficult , personal, and important facets of the LS.  Often it is overlooked in the conversations here, unfortunately.

Good for you in struggling with it.

Debbie and I grappled with the idea of swinging with our friends for years with sometimes deep, sometimes light conversation even discussing guilt, brushing on the cheat thought. We convinced ourselves that we are not cheating, shouldn’t have guilt feelings. It’s hard to control feelings. 

[MidwestHoneys 356]

Cheating isn’t always cheating if the other one don’t care.  I know not to ask what Honey does during the day and she only tells me what she wants to tell me. If I’m lucky a chick she is cheating with wants a cock and I get a call so I get to cheat too. 

[njbm 2,868]

Have you seen the t shirt “ It’s not cheating if my wife/husband watches?”