Logic of Condom Usage.

[lcmim 1,082]

I realize that this topic has been raised time and again on many threads.

I thought that raising it again as a dedicated thread might be useful.

There are many reasons for using condoms related to both birth control and disease.

I am sure that most of us are familiar with these.

 

I have a logical problem to pose.

 

Oral, when properly done, exposes every orifice in the head to bodily fluids. Most of these orifices, (mouth, nose, and eyes) are mucosal and provide ample opportunity for the transmission of disease.

In the mouth the entire gum line is permeable the nose and eyes are self-evident. The ears maybe not so much of a risk but are still exposed.

 

What then is the logic, outside of birth control, for insisting on condoms for intercourse, but not for oral.

 

If I perform oral on a lady and subsequently on my wife, or my lady on a partner, and then on me, are we not as exposed to the other couple's potential for disease as if we just had sex unencumbered?

 

We do go the condom route, but more and more it seems theater to me rather than a practical deterrent.

I look forward to your answers.

Edited January 14, 2022 by lcmim

[njbm 2,870]

My opinion is if it helps marginally, why not use it? It can’t hurt. Sort of like wearing a mask for covid. Probably helps, not a terrible burden to wear one, has to beat nothing. 
 

I will add that condoms are of dubious help to prevent HPV and HSV. Some swingers are pious that they use condoms for safe sex, but extramarital sex is not safe sex. 

Edited January 14, 2022 by njbm

[BillyandDebbie 301]

Well this post is a bummer. 

[Fitlakecouple 451]

You are not wrong. But, it's a gesture toward 'safety'. And, some like the psychological separation it creates.

Lots of things we do makes zero sense. Stand in line 6 feet apart waiting in TSA -  then - cram yourself into an aircraft where 9 people are within arms reach...

Yet we do it none the less / go along to get along.

[lcmim 1,082]

Why a bummer?

 

We all know that there are risks involved,  health wise both physical and psychological, to our relationships, if we misjudge, to our finances if our work lives get compromised.

 

We have all made adjustments to our actions to lessen the likelihood of repercussions.

We have all the proceeded with whatever we consider acceptable risk scenarios.

This is not that much different than casually driving on the freeway, but not on New Years Eve.

 

The specific condom question is driven by wondering if  that, once I have accepted driving my face into a ladies vagina, how much good does a condom do later on? The open area of my penis is far less than my eyes. They are exposed to exactly the same fluids.

 

I am all in favor of effective means of prevention. Playing with people whose status is recently verified for instance, or a closed group.

 

Replacing real precautions with theater does not make sense.

Distinguishing just exactly was IS theater is a problem.

Edited January 14, 2022 by lcmim

[lcmim 1,082]

42 minutes ago, njbm said:

My opinion is if it helps marginally, why not use it? It can’t hurt. Sort of like wearing a mask for covid. Probably helps, not a terrible burden to wear one, has to beat nothing. 
 

A decent analogy . 

Might it not be more like wearing the mask at the gas station, but French kissing everyone in the cue at the grocery store?

There are tons of guys who have issues performing with a condom for various reasons, sensation , a break in concentration.

Both can be dealt with. Picking a different brand, incorporating suiting up  into the sex play by having the lady do the honors etc.

For these guys it is not just another indifferent factor.

 Just doing a cost vs benefit thing here.

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by lcmim

[EastInWest 1,524]

57 minutes ago, lcmim said:

I have a logical problem to pose.

 

Oral, when properly done, exposes every orifice in the head to bodily fluids. Most of these orifices, (mouth, nose, and eyes) are mucosal and provide ample opportunity for the transmission of disease.

In the mouth the entire gum line is permeable the nose and eyes are self-evident. The ears maybe not so much of a risk but are still exposed.

 

What then is the logic, outside of birth control, for insisting on condoms for intercourse, but not for oral.

 

If I perform oral on a lady and subsequently on my wife, or my lady on a partner, and then on me, are we not as exposed to the other couple's potential for disease as if we just had sex unencumbered?

All of this is true.

 

Yet it's also a difference of degree. The CDC rates the risk of HIV transmission by oral sex, on a scale of "per 10,000 exposures", as simply "low" - too low to measure. While there is absolutely a theoretical mode of transmission, the risk is also often described as a statistical zero, because researchers are frequently unable to find an actual case in their data to count.

 

As njbm notes, condoms are much less effective for certain other incurable (though treatable) STDs. I have seen less research on herpes infection that attempts to measure risk by sex act, possibly because herpes is so prevalent that it's very difficult to trace transmission to specific encounters. It's also infectious enough that the risk of transmission from an asymptomatic person may only be half that of a symptomatic person, and condom use may only reduce the risk of transmission from an asymptomatic person by about half of that. We're not talking about 99.9% effectiveness, here. That doesn't mean throw caution to the wind, just that if you're going to work your way through a significant number of partners over time, exposure is probably unavoidable to the point that it's a genuinely questionable fun-vs-safety tradeoff.

 

Mrs. E is one of the most meticulously clean people I've ever met, yet her take on it was that she'd never sucked on a condom before and wasn't going to start. If there's any doubt at all about a person's lifestyle and practices, or anything unusual at all like a skin ulcer, that they seem potentially high-risk, we're simply not including those people in play, condoms or not.

Edited January 14, 2022 by EastInWest

[lcmim 1,082]

11 minutes ago, EastInWest said:

 

 

Mrs. E is one of the most meticulously clean people I've ever met, yet her take on it was that she'd never sucked on a condom before and wasn't going to start. If there's any doubt at all about a person's lifestyle and practices that they seem high-risk, we're simply not including those people in play, condoms or not.

The medical risks I understand. I have seen others HIV that take into account the state of oral health with blood to blood as far as receiving the virus, but that is nit picking for the purpose of this discussion.

 

I'd like to focus on the quoted text. A persons lifestyle and habits are important but without a comprehensive history they are only a snap shot. Who I am today is not who I was living in a commune in the 60's.

 

I am wondering how many of us ask for recent STI checkups. If so how often. How often is reasonable? For us , one or the other of us at 6 month intervals, with a fairly low turnover in partners.

Edited January 14, 2022 by lcmim

[njbm 2,870]

My public service announcement which I’ve made before: if you are under 45 years old, get vaccinated for HPV. One less thing to worry about. We are too old for it. 

[njbm 2,870]

39 minutes ago, lcmim said:

There are tons of guys who have issues performing with a condom for various reasons, sensation , a break in concentration.

Both can be dealt with. Picking a different brand, incorporating suiting up  into the sex play by having the lady do the honors etc.

For these guys it is not just another indifferent factor.

 Just doing a cost vs benefit thing here.

 

I do have performance difficulties with condoms. Viagra and Trojan Double Ecstasy (lubed inside and outside) greatly help. But I feel the pain of men whose performance is impaired by condoms. But one doesn’t want warts and/or sores on one’s pecker. 

[lcmim 1,082]

15 minutes ago, njbm said:

I do have performance difficulties with condoms. Viagra and Trojan Double Ecstasy (lubed inside and outside) greatly help. But I feel the pain of men whose performance is impaired by condoms. But one doesn’t want warts and/or sores on one’s pecker. 

I understand.

Is that the most effective mode of protection in your mind.?

 

How do you address going down on your wife after eating at the "Y" next door?

[NerdsAreFun 226]

32 minutes ago, njbm said:

My public service announcement which I’ve made before: if you are under 45 years old, get vaccinated for HPV. One less thing to worry about. We are too old for it. 

Yep covid vaccine and hpv vaccine are our conditions for future partners.  Which surely cuts the number of potential partners.  However as we are mostly looking for single males these days there's still far more out there interested than there is time to simply message them much less hook up with all of them. 😆

 

Those conditions + a recent STI test and we're good to go bareback.

 

The completely random hookup scenario where a flavored condom or a dental dam may be called for with oral is likely just a scenario we wouldn't engage in(anymore).

Edited January 14, 2022 by NerdsAreFun

[AndrewandAnn 360]

The use of condoms is always a relevant topic in the lifestyle.

 

As was pointed out earlier, there is no such thing as having safe sex in the lifestyle. Swinging is, by definition, a risky behavior. However, that risk can be mitigated. How? Unfortunately, we believe many people start this discussion with asking the wrong question. Here's the way we approached it:

 

What steps can we take to mitigate the potential of being exposed, or exposing someone else, to an STD/STI or similar disease? We *strongly* suggest discussing this with your respective doctor prior to engaging in any lifestyle activity. We did and it was eye-opening. And we continue to discuss it, every year, during our annual check-ups.

 

What level of risk are we reasonably willing to accept? If one is not willing to accept at least some level of risk, they should not engage in the lifestyle.

 

What steps are we reasonably willing to take to mitigate the risks?

 

We arrived at the conclusion that the best course of action for us is to use a layered approach as follows:

 

Group? Closed.

Number of partners? Small.

History of highly risky behavior (i.e., use of illicit drugs, sex with prostitutes, bisexual males, anonymous sex, etc.)  among the partners? None reported*

Regular testing? Without exception.

Condoms? Every time, with the exception of sex between spouses or their partners/significant others.

 

We realize not everyone is willing to take all of these steps. However, this approach works for us and is no big deal.

 

It's easy to dismiss risks when you're 30 years-old, your dick is harder than quantum physics, and your life seems like it will go on forever. In time, your perspective changes.

 

Frankly, as we have grown older and our own mortality and the general frailty of human life becomes more obvious, caring for our own health and the health of our those in our circle of partners, has never been more important.

 

*It's an Honor System. No way to be certain if someone is telling the truth, lying, or simply does not remember that long ago Saturday night with the two strippers in Tijuana.

[NWAtlSwing 522]

We think people do what people do.

 

We love that this conversation has been non-judgemental

[njbm 2,870]

3 hours ago, lcmim said:

I understand.

Is that the most effective mode of protection in your mind.?

 

How do you address going down on your wife after eating at the "Y" next door?

Look, I could possibly get esophageal cancer from performing oral sex on someone with HPV. I know that. It’s troubling. I don’t have the answer. We have several female friends who ran into medical problems from HPV. 

[EastInWest 1,524]

1 minute ago, lcmim said:

The medical risks I understand. I have seen others HIV that take into account the state of oral health with blood to blood as far as receiving the virus, but that is nit picking for the purpose of this discussion.

 

I'd like to focus on the quoted text. A persons lifestyle and habits are important but without a comprehensive history they are only a snap shot. Who I am today is not who I was living in a commune in the 60's.

 

I am wondering how many of us ask for recent STI checkups. If so how often.

We do this with our regular annual bloodwork. If we had more frequent encounters with a larger number of new partners, we would certainly elevate that, but the truth is that we are probably less active in terms of partners than many vanilla singles.

 

I understand very much where you're coming from about lifestyle and knowing someone's past, and as you say, it's still  important, a useful screening tool, and that's been good enough for our risk tolerance. If we needed perfection, the answer would be to not to play at all, or, as you mentioned, to play in a closed circle and check paperwork. (Also a valid approach, not suggesting people who go that way are overcautious.)

 

Barring that, the risk of transmitting HPV (for example), is estimated by one McGill study at 20% - over six months between couples who reported an average of four sessions a week, half without ever using condoms. Some suggest it may also be passed by deep kissing. What, realistically, is one supposed to do with that information? (Barring the obvious answer, the HPV vaccine, which I had no idea one could get up to age 45. I believed the cut-off to be much lower, and that's great information for people to have.)

 

Probably roughly the same things one might do as vanilla singles - and I qualify that by pointing at our style of activity, which isn't that dissimilar from what vanilla singles do. If we frequented clubs, had frequent encounters with a large circle of people who play widely, etc., we would probably evaluate that concern very differently.

[cplnluv1 872]

The use of condoms is a very serious topic that some people disregard at the moment it should be the biggest thought. How many high school girls have found themselves in a major problem because horniness overtook smart sex. You would think people get smarter with age, it doesn’t. We are guilty as not always going the smart route. When we meet people I have a goody bag with me, condoms, female condom(I’ve never used one), lubes in different flavors, dental dams, as well as several toys, and wipes. What is used from the bag varies, as I said the female condom has never been used. With curious women being the focus of our first meetings toys are used often. Almost every woman we met have used toys at home, some of my toys are much different from the typical vibe. I’m always looking for new and maybe kinkier toys to try out. I think there are some, a few women who have ever seen a dental dam, none have ever used one in sex. I think unscientifically half have used lubes and those who haven’t enjoy my selection of flavors. I can’t remember a woman who asked me to use protection when having oral done to her. There was one who asked if we could use the dam when she built up nerve which made us laugh because I had no idea how it worked. Sex with men the numbers change, oral sex maybe a quarter of the men will wear a condom, and the majority will if we have sex. The number of women insisting on condoms are higher. The numbers go down if we see couples over and over.  I will agree it is logical to always use condoms, it’s just we don’t stick to logic. 

[lcmim 1,082]

I apologize if it has seemed that I was pushing too hard on some of this topic. I was really very interested in others thoughts.

There are times when I suspect that I have too much belief in my own logic, and bouncing things around with others is a good check.

 

These are all questions that we have asked ourselves about this subject.

I find it reassuring that the responses thus far mostly run parallel to our own answers and concerns.

 

The one point that I hadn't thought about, which lit a lightbulb, was EastInWest's comment "but the truth is that we are probably less active in terms of partners than many vanilla singles.". That observation probably holds true for many of us. 

Edited January 14, 2022 by lcmim

[njbm 2,870]

Agree on your last point. Dating singles have the same quandry.

[Billygoat 443]

As with everything in the lifestyle it is all a matter of choice.

 

And the analogy of condom use for protection being like wearing a mask for COVID protection is very spot on.  Like the mask not actually giving protection from the disease it is better than nothing and gives a modest amount of protection.  More limiting pregnancy than disease protection.  Sex is messy, wet participating activity.  Not limited to mouth and genital contact….hands and fingers.   Used to touch, feel, stroke and penetrate then touch, brush, rub etc body parts, face tongue etc.  transference. 
 

We respect others choices without question.   And we have played soft and full swap with others using and not using condoms.  We prefer not to use them…..far more exciting and enjoyable.  But circumstances dictate.

 

As a result we have had a very rich and fantastic Lifestyle experience.  More so my wife has experience most anything she desired or fantasized about, as it should be, and So have I as a result of supporting her, her desires and experiences.

 

we have slowed down over the years.  Have personal friends, long term and play open and freely with them naturally and fully as lovers.  A full sharing….without condoms finishing as we wish with each other.

 

But that is our choice.

 

 

[AndrewandAnn 360]

13 hours ago, lcmim said:

The one point that I hadn't thought about, which lit a lightbulb, was EastInWest's comment "but the truth is that we are probably less active in terms of partners than many vanilla singles.". That observation probably holds true for many of us. 

Actually, singles are not very sexually active.

 

And sexual activity, particularly among young people, has declined precipitously over the past 18 years or so.

 

Source: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2767066

[Bored n horny 1]

My wife and I are thinking about joining the lifestyle. A little back ground to my question. I had a condom break in college and got the lady pregnant. A couple years later. My girlfriend was allergic to latex. I asked if she was apposed to lamb skin condoms she did not like that idea. She had a better one, a penis sleeve. I felt more secure knowing it covered everything. So my question is, would it be weird to bring one to a swingers club? I’d wear a condom over it. 

[njbm 2,870]

8 minutes ago, Bored n horny said:

My wife and I are thinking about joining the lifestyle. A little back ground to my question. I had a condom break in college and got the lady pregnant. A couple years later. My girlfriend was allergic to latex. I asked if she was apposed to lamb skin condoms she did not like that idea. She had a better one, a penis sleeve. I felt more secure knowing it covered everything. So my question is, would it be weird to bring one to a swingers club? I’d wear a condom over it. 

I am unfamiliar with a penis sleeve. What is it? What is it made of?

[Bored n horny 1]

1 hour ago, njbm said:

I am unfamiliar with a penis sleeve. What is it? What is it made of?

 

1 hour ago, njbm said:

I am unfamiliar with a penis sleeve. What is it? What is it made of?

They are usually made of silicone, cyberskin, or tpe. Some can add length, some add girth.  My gf bought different one depending on her taste at the time. 

[fauthly 1]

A most interesting topic, and one worthy of continuing. The conversation spurred me to spend time reading though some NIH and CDC publications, and then some research on Google Scholar. Mind you I am not a health expert, but the data is out there in the public domain for all to see.

 

I feel the need to be frank and direct on the topic at the risk that some will be offended. So I am sorry to those whom I may offend if it means that what I share helps someone to NOT contract an STD.

 

Regarding studies and condom usage, I agree that condom usage is not likely to be 100% effective. The studies are imperfect and are based on probable statistical models that are as accurate or inaccurate as the mathematics used and how the data is interpreted/presented/accepted by the scientific community. After all, how can one predict human behavior in all cases in these studies? Regardless, I also agree with others here that using condoms makes sense with new encounters. To use an analogy, why walk the tight rope without a net?

 

I would like to add that there are measures one should consider beyond condom use for HIV prevention: pre-exposure prophylaxis (PrEP), which has been shown to be 99% effective in preventing HIV transmission and 100% effective (with a 95% confidence level in the data) if the partner is HIV+ and is viral suppressed. Don't take my word for it. Look for yourselves at https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31184746/  and https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/pdf/risk/art/cdc-hiv-art-viral-suppression.pdf. I will caution that some research suggests shots (typically given quarterly) for PrEP have a lower efficacy versus a daily pill when adherence is 100%. I also caution PrEP may not offer protection against an HIV person who is not compliant with treatment and has developed HIV drug resistance.

 

I personally consider HEP-C a bigger concern. There is no vaccine (although according to the Mayo Clinic the risk of HEP-C infection is reduced if one gets the HEP-A & HEP-B vaccine) and the treatments are expensive ($95K for a 12 week regiment), with significant side effects.

 

The BIG take-away here is trust with those you share your bodies with. But I agree that trust + verify is important; especially if a new encounter. And as one writer stated, an STD composite test is a point-in-time when the test was administered, and is not a sure thing. For example, it takes around 2 weeks from exposure for a person to show a positive HIV test after post exposure.

 

As for me, the HEP-C risk is a strong deterrent. I rarely swing.

[lcmim 1,082]

All your points are well taken.

However, if the goal is safety from STD's then celibacy or a TRULY monogamous lifestyle with neither party straying, or any equally faithful poly configuration are the only answers.

 

My question of logic still begs to be answered.

Given oral sex exposure to body fluids in the mouth , eyes, etc., and the possible exposure to highly infectible areas. Does condom usage then following for vaginal intercourse truly add anything to the safety as far as STDs go? 

 

My brain says that condoms make sense for disease control if paired with dental dams and latex gloves as a system, just for the sake of consistency. Otherwise it is rather like a surgeon only sterilizing one hand , or cleaning both hands and operating wearing street clothes and no mask.  One clean hand is clearly better than two dirty ones, but is it enough better to make it safe, or even  safer?

[njbm 2,870]

37 minutes ago, lcmim said:

All your points are well taken.

However, if the goal is safety from STD's then celibacy or a TRULY monogamous lifestyle with neither party straying, or any equally faithful poly configuration are the only answers.

 

My question of logic still begs to be answered.

Given oral sex exposure to body fluids in the mouth , eyes, etc., and the possible exposure to highly infectible areas. Does condom usage then following for vaginal intercourse truly add anything to the safety as far as STDs go? 

 

My brain says that condoms make sense for disease control if paired with dental dams and latex gloves as a system, just for the sake of consistency. Otherwise it is rather like a surgeon only sterilizing one hand , or cleaning both hands and operating wearing street clothes and no mask.  One clean hand is clearly better than two dirty ones, but is it enough better to make it safe, or even  safer?

I think it is impossible to know how much condom usage for intercourse helps if one is performing oral sex without condoms, dental dams, etc. But it must be more than zero. Sort of like a mask to prevent covid. There must be some level of protection greater than not wearing a mask. While condoms and masks are a nuisance, they are not the worst thing in the world. Certainly easier than getting a wart sliced off your pecker or irregular cells getting cut out of one’s cervix. 

[ROCKlandCpl 451]

My history of condom use goes back to my earliest days of having sex, before I started the pill. More than once things went so wrong starting with my first time. I went to the drug store with my boyfriend and waited in the car while he went inside to buy. We drove to a store in another town so nobody would catch us. We went back to his parents house knowing we had two hours. 
No need to go over how nervous I was and he was equally nervous. We all remember that first time, something no woman forgets.  Teenage love ❤️. It took two of the three to get it on him and it wasn’t great. 
Future boyfriends had problems too including slipping off and worrying about things for weeks. 
I did go on dates where condoms were used though I was on the pill. Safe sex. I also threw up from oral on a lubricated condom. Yuck 🤮. No guy ever used protection giving oral, a few used condoms after taking no oral protection. 

[cplnluv1 872]

5 hours ago, ROCKlandCpl said:

We all remember that first time, something no woman forgets.

Your post is very true. I am going to say that the majority of women will agree that the first time did not go to plan. Could be condom problems or the worries of not having one. My “boyfriend” had a wallet Trojan as I joked was just waiting for me. In college I carried the what if condom even though I too was on birth control. I knew all about STD and HPV and all the other problems that could be passed along. 

[NWAtlSwing 522]

Our first try, he could not keep it up with the condom. Worked the next day.

[njbm 2,870]

51 minutes ago, NWAtlSwing said:

Our first try, he could not keep it up with the condom. Worked the next day.

Vitamin V. Works everytime. 

[NWAtlSwing 522]

7 hours ago, njbm said:

Vitamin V. Works everytime. 

Well, Vitamin V was not around in 1990 for the first time we had sex at age 20 each.

[Sophy 569]

Sex has been always a risk, I know this since I started my sexual life when I was a teenager. We both do understand the risks and we both manage them, for us the outcome is much more rewarding, saying that this is our current situation:

 

We do not use condoms for oral, for me the taste of the condoms is a big mood-breaker, flavour or no flavour, sucking on a piece of rubber is a bad experience for me.

Also, most of the time I handle the male orgasm in my mouth.

 We use condoms for penetration, we have condomless sex ONLY with our closest friends, people we know for years -> these are only two couples.

 

Once again, we both do understand the risks, we just simply made an adult decision.