Anyother Evangelical Christian couples here?

[NEWTOTHIS34 23]

Hello all,

 

My wife and I are in our 40s and are Evangelical Christians and have been reading alot about how its actually not sin to swing and not adultery, based on scripture.

We would love though to maybe chat with another evangelical Christian Couple who are more studied than us just to give us some tips please?

We are British and in the UK, so obviously will be virtually but we would really appreciate some tips from a biblical point of view aswell as just knowing we are not the only Christian swingers

Hoping another Christian couple will be willing for a quick chat sometme and connect?

 

Thanks all

[lcmim 1,082]

Welcome aboard

 

[NEWTOTHIS34 23]

15 minutes ago, lcmim said:

Welcome aboard

 

Thank you, hoping some Evangelical Christians chim in on this thread

[NEWTOTHIS34 23]

11 minutes ago, jamesok said:

Howdy from the US. My wife and I were both raised Baptist and she is currently more active in the church. I stepped back from it quite a bit myself for personal reasons, don't help I was a preacher's son lol. We are both in our 30's. I would have to look up the scriptures I've read throughout my life that make my heart at peace with God regarding nonmonogamy. I would start off with that adultery is cheating, add on top of that the amount of concubines that are mentioned in the OT along with different OT laws regarding nonmonogamous relations give a good base. The biggest thing I remember is The Great Commandment.  "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the greatest and first commandment. Love God above all else. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' The last one is probably the hardest one to fulfill to be honest. Loving God is pretty easy, neighbors on the other hand make me repent for a sin there on a regular basis lol. Hope this helps and interested to hear your views on this. My Wife is also on this forum so is likely to chime in eventually. Really never thought this topic would come up here lol.

Thank you so very much for your kind reply!!! really helpful too, have sent you a PM hope thats ok?

[bbarnsworth 2,637]

Newtothis; WELCOME!

 

While I can't claim to be evangelical per se, my wife and I are most emphatically Christian. Of course, God calls us to evangelize regardless of how we label ourselves, and we do. For the record; we attend both an Anglican church and a Baptist church.

 

Getting into swinging and reconciling that with a Christian life was something that was challenging for us. We didn't want to approach it as the sort of thing where we tried to ram it through, and twist and contort the Gospel to meet our idea of what we needed it to be to support swinging. We wanted to approach it with truth, honesty, and openness.

 

We concur with jamesok; adultery is cheating. It's an interesting word. Work through that in the context of the Bible. Read the Gospel about this. What we found in our own understanding was that adultery is the act of one spouse bespoiling themselves by having relations outside of marriage without consent of the spouse. The penalties for this are the same for either the husband or the wife; death (Leviticus 20:10). Jesus removed that as a punishment, though the penalty remained. So it would seem to be a grave sin.

 

But is swinging adultery? Is it cheating? Is it bespoiling? That's for you to reconcile within yourself. For us, it came to this simple truth; there is no victim. If there is no victim, where is the harm? If there is no harm, where is the sin? My wife and I choose to have sex with other people. They come away from it happier. We come away from it happier. Our lives have been more fulfilled by having an open marriage. We are closer, more loving, better communicating, and more trusting. Nothing has come from swinging that in any way has been a negative. We were ready to swing because we had a great marriage to begin with, and because of being able to find answers mostly on this forum. For those who are not ready, it can cause damage and that would result in a victim; themselves. But, dating someone monogamously can cause harm to ourselves. Obviously we are not cheating because we both consent to it. But are we bespoiling the marriage? If it generates such happiness and positive impacts, how can that be the case? Are we bespoiling our bodies? When a man cums inside my wife, is he tainting her by leaving behind his semen? Define 'taint'. My wife can not get pregnant, so no child is being created within her that is not mine. She enjoys the act, as do I. So, how is it bespoiling her? Likewise for me.

 

This is your journey. Don't force yourself to reconcile the concept of swinging with the Bible. Answer the questions, yes. Contort the Bible and yourself to fit this paradigm? No. Prayer, communication, and reflection will guide you.

[couplers 4,640]

10 hours ago, bbarnsworth said:

My wife can not get pregnant, so no child is being created within her that is not mine.

Former hardcore Catholic girl here.  I, as well as the other women in our poly family, have had children by both men (and no other).  Our relationships, especially among us three women, is as solid and devoted as any I know.  Each of the children have five parents who treat them as their own.

 

We have on occasions played outside our family, so I understand your point.  But there is another rare level to our situation.  Perhaps we women are like concubines of old.

[cplnluv1 872]

Agnostic here. If you are worrying about damnation somebody on here is not going to give you absolution. You can read a bible any way you want to fit your needs or to give you the absolution you so need.  

[NEWTOTHIS34 23]

21 hours ago, bbarnsworth said:

Newtothis; WELCOME!

 

While I can't claim to be evangelical per se, my wife and I are most emphatically Christian. Of course, God calls us to evangelize regardless of how we label ourselves, and we do. For the record; we attend both an Anglican church and a Baptist church.

 

Getting into swinging and reconciling that with a Christian life was something that was challenging for us. We didn't want to approach it as the sort of thing where we tried to ram it through, and twist and contort the Gospel to meet our idea of what we needed it to be to support swinging. We wanted to approach it with truth, honesty, and openness.

 

We concur with jamesok; adultery is cheating. It's an interesting word. Work through that in the context of the Bible. Read the Gospel about this. What we found in our own understanding was that adultery is the act of one spouse bespoiling themselves by having relations outside of marriage without consent of the spouse. The penalties for this are the same for either the husband or the wife; death (Leviticus 20:10). Jesus removed that as a punishment, though the penalty remained. So it would seem to be a grave sin.

 

But is swinging adultery? Is it cheating? Is it bespoiling? That's for you to reconcile within yourself. For us, it came to this simple truth; there is no victim. If there is no victim, where is the harm? If there is no harm, where is the sin? My wife and I choose to have sex with other people. They come away from it happier. We come away from it happier. Our lives have been more fulfilled by having an open marriage. We are closer, more loving, better communicating, and more trusting. Nothing has come from swinging that in any way has been a negative. We were ready to swing because we had a great marriage to begin with, and because of being able to find answers mostly on this forum. For those who are not ready, it can cause damage and that would result in a victim; themselves. But, dating someone monogamously can cause harm to ourselves. Obviously we are not cheating because we both consent to it. But are we bespoiling the marriage? If it generates such happiness and positive impacts, how can that be the case? Are we bespoiling our bodies? When a man cums inside my wife, is he tainting her by leaving behind his semen? Define 'taint'. My wife can not get pregnant, so no child is being created within her that is not mine. She enjoys the act, as do I. So, how is it bespoiling her? Likewise for me.

 

This is your journey. Don't force yourself to reconcile the concept of swinging with the Bible. Answer the questions, yes. Contort the Bible and yourself to fit this paradigm? No. Prayer, communication, and reflection will guide you.

 

Thank you, that is a great intelligent and some great scripture references.

For us its making sure we are not just making scripture suit what we would like but like you said approaching it with honesty and it scriptures true context and true meaning, As I can see how certain things Churches have twisted things over the years. I can see how the greatest men of God, many many of them had concubines who I presume they had sex with right? these are women who were unmarried. These men also had lots of wives too. I can see how God never said it was sinful ever....people say well Gods orginal plan was only one man and one woman and quote

 

 

But I dont think that scripture means that? Do you? Also even if that was Gods orginal plan then it certainly wasnt sin for those Godly men who had many sexual partners as God NEVR condemed them for it. 

King David only sinned with Bethsheba because he took her from her husband without his consent. 

 

I see also how in the New Testmant Jesus liberated women to the same and equal as men so women had the same sexual freedom and were no long considered property of men, whch ofcourse was good. 

 

I am struggiling with the true meaning of this? Matthew 5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

 

Obviously with swinging you have to feel a degree of lust and sexual desire towards the person you swing with right? But then again......all the Godly men of the Bible who had sex outside of their marriage with many different women must have looked with lust but God never condemed them for this or said it was sin? So I am confused with that? Any ideas?

 

 

[NEWTOTHIS34 23]

  

21 hours ago, bbarnsworth said:

Newtothis; WELCOME!

 

While I can't claim to be evangelical per se, my wife and I are most emphatically Christian. Of course, God calls us to evangelize regardless of how we label ourselves, and we do. For the record; we attend both an Anglican church and a Baptist church.

 

Getting into swinging and reconciling that with a Christian life was something that was challenging for us. We didn't want to approach it as the sort of thing where we tried to ram it through, and twist and contort the Gospel to meet our idea of what we needed it to be to support swinging. We wanted to approach it with truth, honesty, and openness.

 

We concur with jamesok; adultery is cheating. It's an interesting word. Work through that in the context of the Bible. Read the Gospel about this. What we found in our own understanding was that adultery is the act of one spouse bespoiling themselves by having relations outside of marriage without consent of the spouse. The penalties for this are the same for either the husband or the wife; death (Leviticus 20:10). Jesus removed that as a punishment, though the penalty remained. So it would seem to be a grave sin.

 

But is swinging adultery? Is it cheating? Is it bespoiling? That's for you to reconcile within yourself. For us, it came to this simple truth; there is no victim. If there is no victim, where is the harm? If there is no harm, where is the sin? My wife and I choose to have sex with other people. They come away from it happier. We come away from it happier. Our lives have been more fulfilled by having an open marriage. We are closer, more loving, better communicating, and more trusting. Nothing has come from swinging that in any way has been a negative. We were ready to swing because we had a great marriage to begin with, and because of being able to find answers mostly on this forum. For those who are not ready, it can cause damage and that would result in a victim; themselves. But, dating someone monogamously can cause harm to ourselves. Obviously we are not cheating because we both consent to it. But are we bespoiling the marriage? If it generates such happiness and positive impacts, how can that be the case? Are we bespoiling our bodies? When a man cums inside my wife, is he tainting her by leaving behind his semen? Define 'taint'. My wife can not get pregnant, so no child is being created within her that is not mine. She enjoys the act, as do I. So, how is it bespoiling her? Likewise for me.

 

This is your journey. Don't force yourself to reconcile the concept of swinging with the Bible. Answer the questions, yes. Contort the Bible and yourself to fit this paradigm? No. Prayer, communication, and reflection will guide you.

 

Thank you, that is a great intelligent and some great scripture references.

For us its making sure we are not just making scripture suit what we would like but like you said approaching it with honesty and it scriptures true context and true meaning, As I can see how certain things Churches have twisted things over the years. I can see how the greatest men of God, many many of them had concubines who I presume they had sex with right? these are women who were unmarried. These men also had lots of wives too. I can see how God never said it was sinful ever....people say well Gods orginal plan was only one man and one woman and quote

 

“Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.” Genesis 2:24 (ESV)

 

But I dont think that scripture means that? Do you? Also even if that was Gods orginal plan then it certainly wasnt sin for those Godly men who had many sexual partners as God NEVR condemed them for it. 

King David only sinned with Bethsheba because he took her from her husband without his consent. 

 

I see also how in the New Testmant Jesus liberated women to the same and equal as men so women had the same sexual freedom and were no long considered property of men, whch ofcourse was good. 

 

I am struggiling with the true meaning of this? Matthew 5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

 

Obviously with swinging you have to feel a degree of lust and sexual desire towards the person you swing with right? But then again......all the Godly men of the Bible who had sex outside of their marriage with many different women must have looked with lust but God never condemed them for this or said it was sin? So I am confused with that? Any ideas?

 

Also:

Colossians 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

 

What is sexually imorality or impurity or passion or covertness in relaton to swinging? again I go back to how the greatest Godly men had many women and that obviously wasnt sexual imorality or impurity.

 

I read that "The Bible speaks of sex outside of marriage as immoral and adulterous (1 Corinthians 6:13, 18; 10:8; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:3; Colossians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 4:3)." 

But how is it adultery as God allowed men to sleep with other women in the bible and didnt say it was sin or immoral. 

 

I also read "should be considered adultery if the other spouse allows, approves, or even participates in it. The answer is an unequivocal yes, it is adultery! God is the one who defines what marriage is and what adultery is"

 

But again God never called it adultery when all the men who were Godly men had sex with other women and where it says Gods the one who defines what marriage is but God did not define marriage as a man or woman to only ever have sex with eachother for the rest of their life as far as I can see and certainly not consistant as men did not have sex with only their wife in the OT. Also people who say this quote the becoming one flesh scripture but that just simply means they are basically physically inside eachother when they have sex, not that they become physcially forever part of eachother and no where does it say that they must now only ever have sex with eachother and no one else...it doesnt say that and that would be adding to that scripture. 

 

 

 

 

[bbarnsworth 2,637]

Newtothis; responding to your point about Matthew 5:28:

 

It is very common for people to quote passages of the Bible, yet not pull in the surrounding content for reference, much less connect it to other parts of the Bible. In no way do I mean that you are doing this. I want to highlight some things, that is all. First, understand that Matthew is defending Jesus as the Messiah, and that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament. Take 5:28 a little further, and have a look at 5:32. Look past the written text here just a bit; here, if a woman committed sexual immorality, she could be divorced and thus be married again without her new husband committing adultery. But...what man under such criteria would marry such a woman? Taking the text more literally, if a woman did not commit sexual immorality, but her husband divorced her anyway (think; against her will), any man marrying her in the future would be committing adultery every time he went to bed with her. Nevermind the dichotomy of treatment of men vs. women in this scenario! Any woman who marries is essentially doomed to only every having the one husband unless her husband dies before she does. If the marriage is a failed marriage in every respect but sexual immorality, she can never divorce him, or if she does...can never remarry. I can't imagine this is what God intends for women. I refuse to accept that. And this is New Testament! Of note; my wife was married before me. My wife fully intended to remain married to him for the rest of her life. She never cheated on him. He divorced her anyway. Thus, according to the Bible I am committing adultery every time my wife and I are intimate. I don't think that is what God really intended.

 

Back to 5:28; as I think we all know, men on average are more visually oriented in sexual attraction to others. This is not to say that women aren't as well, but for most men it is a powerful motivator. God made us this way. Let that sink in. God made us that way. It is good that sexual attraction (in both sexes) is part of us as it promotes the furtherance of the species, Without it, we would have died out a long time ago. Being lustful towards another is not in and of itself a sin. Where and how such desire is directed is where sin can come. If I look at my neighbor's wife with lust and desire, and I have no reason to believe that couple is non-monogamous, then my attentions are most certainly unwanted and I am doing something wrong. If I am looking at another man's wife, and I know they are non-monogamous, then how is that any different than me being single and admiring the beauty of a single woman? Referring to my earlier post; where is the victim? Where is the crime if there is no victim? Where is the sin if there is no crime? The key to this, as with having sex with others, is what counts as adultery. What counts as adultery to me is based on what counts as being harmful.

 

In my day to day life, I encounter attractive women from time to time. If I'm directly interacting with them, I will address them while looking at their face, their eyes. If I'm not interacting with them, I will appreciate their beauty if I can do so in a way that is discrete, unknown to them. I hate the idea of a woman feeling like she is objectified. I don't want to do that. That creates a victim. There is harm in that. I can't change the reality that I am visually attracted to women. I can choose how to act within that reality, and prevent harm from occurring being that reality. My wife is well aware that I do this, and appreciates that I am discrete. She is not bothered by this, and sometimes even points out attractive women to me (and me, vice-versa with men). If she was not happy about this, I would do everything in my power to stop, whether she was aware or not. Otherwise, I would be making a victim of her. Again, it boils down to where there is harm there is sin.

 

Let's look at this another way. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" is one of the ten commandments. So is "Thou shalt not murder". If you take both of these commandments with a literal interpretation, then the outcome would be no sex outside of marriage no matter what the circumstances, and no killing anyone for any reason ever. Let's look at murder. If a soldier in war kills their enemy, is it murder? Does it depend on whether it was justified? How do we determine "justified"? If an assailant is killed by their victim, is it murder? I remember reading of a very young mother whose husband had died. She was home alone with her infant. Two men attempted to break into her house. She killed the one who first made it through the door, and the other ran off (later arrested). Did she commit murder? When is murder murder? These are both commandments. If killing is not always murder, then why is adultery always adultery? Are there circumstances under which adultery is not adultery? Search that within your heart, within your faith.

 

Ultimately, you can read and read and read the Bible...but it comes down what you feel. If it feels like adultery, it likely is. I've never felt like it was adultery. I've never felt like I was breaking my vows to my wife, or her to me. We take delight in having sex with others. I am very happy she enjoys other men, and I love watching and participating with her with other men. She always comes away happy, and our relationship is always the closer for it. My wife doesn't take the same pleasure in watching me have sex with another woman (it's indifferent to her), but she does take pleasure in knowing how good it makes me feel. We share a very special bond. That bond is not in any way harmed or threatened by us having sex with others. In fact, the bond is very much enhanced by the experiences we have had in having sex with others. This isn't to say we didn't have uncertainty when we first started doing this. The first time she had sex with another man in front of me was a bit of a nervous time for me and her. The first couple of times were in fact. It wasn't until the third time that my wife was convinced. It was an MFM. My wife had an absolutely amazing time, and could not get enough sex with the other man. She loved him being inside her, and throughout the very long session we had with him he was inside her for most of it. I thoroughly loved it as well, and took great delight in how much she enjoyed it. Nothing but joy came out of that evening, for all involved. I can not imagine in any respect such a joyous evening being in any way an act of adultery. Adultery ruins things; it doesn't enhance, it doesn't bring joy, it doesn't bring satisfaction. It destroys, stains, corrupts, ruins.  Our having sex with others never does that.

 

I'm not going to tell you that non-monogamy is for you. Do NOT take any of the above as trying to convince you. I'm providing a perspective from us, and how it worked for us. I can't speak to how it might work for you. Not all couples are suitable for non-monogamy, and there's nothing wrong with that. Couples that aren't suited for it will be harmed by it, and that is a form of adultery. You have to discern this for yourself. You will never be 100% certain if you're suited for it until you try it. But, neither should you try it if you're not pretty certain you're ready. For my wife and I, this took many months of discussion, research, re-discussion many times on previously discussed points, imagined scenarios, reactions, emotions, love, patience, and prayer. For some couples, it happens the first weekend they start thinking about it. Your journey is yours. We're always hear to answer your questions as best we can!

[let's do it again 414]

I have read these posts and I want to throw my towel in the ring. I go to a Baptist church but don't consider myself overly religious.  I am not going to criticize what anyone here has posted, just tell you what our pastor told the congregation 2 weeks ago in his message. Our pastor said marriage is one man and one woman and unmarried people are to refrain from any forms of sex till marriage! Now, all I could do is look around our congregation and wondered how many followed what he preached. It sounds good, but I truly doubt that many people do that. Like I said, preacher said this, but I  can't believe that people have the willpower to follow thru. My opinion, people can find anything in the bible to back their agenda.

[couplers 4,640]

7 hours ago, bbarnsworth said:

I will appreciate their beauty if I can do so in a way that is discrete,

Do you mean "discreet?"  I don't read every post carefully, but yours I take seriously. 

[couplers 4,640]

5 hours ago, let's do it again said:

unmarried people are to refrain from any forms of sex till marriage! Now, all I could do is look around our congregation

Last time I attended Sunday Service with a friend, I looked around and saw people who couldn't even refrain from destroying their health by eating way too much. 

[NEWTOTHIS34 23]

8 hours ago, bbarnsworth said:

Newtothis; responding to your point about Matthew 5:28:

 

It is very common for people to quote passages of the Bible, yet not pull in the surrounding content for reference, much less connect it to other parts of the Bible. In no way do I mean that you are doing this. I want to highlight some things, that is all. First, understand that Matthew is defending Jesus as the Messiah, and that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament. Take 5:28 a little further, and have a look at 5:32. Look past the written text here just a bit; here, if a woman committed sexual immorality, she could be divorced and thus be married again without her new husband committing adultery. But...what man under such criteria would marry such a woman? Taking the text more literally, if a woman did not commit sexual immorality, but her husband divorced her anyway (think; against her will), any man marrying her in the future would be committing adultery every time he went to bed with her. Nevermind the dichotomy of treatment of men vs. women in this scenario! Any woman who marries is essentially doomed to only every having the one husband unless her husband dies before she does. If the marriage is a failed marriage in every respect but sexual immorality, she can never divorce him, or if she does...can never remarry. I can't imagine this is what God intends for women. I refuse to accept that. And this is New Testament! Of note; my wife was married before me. My wife fully intended to remain married to him for the rest of her life. She never cheated on him. He divorced her anyway. Thus, according to the Bible I am committing adultery every time my wife and I are intimate. I don't think that is what God really intended.

 

Back to 5:28; as I think we all know, men on average are more visually oriented in sexual attraction to others. This is not to say that women aren't as well, but for most men it is a powerful motivator. God made us this way. Let that sink in. God made us that way. It is good that sexual attraction (in both sexes) is part of us as it promotes the furtherance of the species, Without it, we would have died out a long time ago. Being lustful towards another is not in and of itself a sin. Where and how such desire is directed is where sin can come. If I look at my neighbor's wife with lust and desire, and I have no reason to believe that couple is non-monogamous, then my attentions are most certainly unwanted and I am doing something wrong. If I am looking at another man's wife, and I know they are non-monogamous, then how is that any different than me being single and admiring the beauty of a single woman? Referring to my earlier post; where is the victim? Where is the crime if there is no victim? Where is the sin if there is no crime? The key to this, as with having sex with others, is what counts as adultery. What counts as adultery to me is based on what counts as being harmful.

 

In my day to day life, I encounter attractive women from time to time. If I'm directly interacting with them, I will address them while looking at their face, their eyes. If I'm not interacting with them, I will appreciate their beauty if I can do so in a way that is discrete, unknown to them. I hate the idea of a woman feeling like she is objectified. I don't want to do that. That creates a victim. There is harm in that. I can't change the reality that I am visually attracted to women. I can choose how to act within that reality, and prevent harm from occurring being that reality. My wife is well aware that I do this, and appreciates that I am discrete. She is not bothered by this, and sometimes even points out attractive women to me (and me, vice-versa with men). If she was not happy about this, I would do everything in my power to stop, whether she was aware or not. Otherwise, I would be making a victim of her. Again, it boils down to where there is harm there is sin.

 

Let's look at this another way. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" is one of the ten commandments. So is "Thou shalt not murder". If you take both of these commandments with a literal interpretation, then the outcome would be no sex outside of marriage no matter what the circumstances, and no killing anyone for any reason ever. Let's look at murder. If a soldier in war kills their enemy, is it murder? Does it depend on whether it was justified? How do we determine "justified"? If an assailant is killed by their victim, is it murder? I remember reading of a very young mother whose husband had died. She was home alone with her infant. Two men attempted to break into her house. She killed the one who first made it through the door, and the other ran off (later arrested). Did she commit murder? When is murder murder? These are both commandments. If killing is not always murder, then why is adultery always adultery? Are there circumstances under which adultery is not adultery? Search that within your heart, within your faith.

 

Ultimately, you can read and read and read the Bible...but it comes down what you feel. If it feels like adultery, it likely is. I've never felt like it was adultery. I've never felt like I was breaking my vows to my wife, or her to me. We take delight in having sex with others. I am very happy she enjoys other men, and I love watching and participating with her with other men. She always comes away happy, and our relationship is always the closer for it. My wife doesn't take the same pleasure in watching me have sex with another woman (it's indifferent to her), but she does take pleasure in knowing how good it makes me feel. We share a very special bond. That bond is not in any way harmed or threatened by us having sex with others. In fact, the bond is very much enhanced by the experiences we have had in having sex with others. This isn't to say we didn't have uncertainty when we first started doing this. The first time she had sex with another man in front of me was a bit of a nervous time for me and her. The first couple of times were in fact. It wasn't until the third time that my wife was convinced. It was an MFM. My wife had an absolutely amazing time, and could not get enough sex with the other man. She loved him being inside her, and throughout the very long session we had with him he was inside her for most of it. I thoroughly loved it as well, and took great delight in how much she enjoyed it. Nothing but joy came out of that evening, for all involved. I can not imagine in any respect such a joyous evening being in any way an act of adultery. Adultery ruins things; it doesn't enhance, it doesn't bring joy, it doesn't bring satisfaction. It destroys, stains, corrupts, ruins.  Our having sex with others never does that.

 

I'm not going to tell you that non-monogamy is for you. Do NOT take any of the above as trying to convince you. I'm providing a perspective from us, and how it worked for us. I can't speak to how it might work for you. Not all couples are suitable for non-monogamy, and there's nothing wrong with that. Couples that aren't suited for it will be harmed by it, and that is a form of adultery. You have to discern this for yourself. You will never be 100% certain if you're suited for it until you try it. But, neither should you try it if you're not pretty certain you're ready. For my wife and I, this took many months of discussion, research, re-discussion many times on previously discussed points, imagined scenarios, reactions, emotions, love, patience, and prayer. For some couples, it happens the first weekend they start thinking about it. Your journey is yours. We're always hear to answer your questions as best we can!

Thank you ever so much for that. I read and re read over. Very helpful.

Can I ask you when you mentioned Matthew was defending Jesus as the messiah, was that in refence to Matt 5 the sermon on the mount? When you mean Matthew was defending Jesus as the messiah you mean in him quoting Jesus words? Right?

 

Also when you mentioned  " Nevermind the dichotomy of treatment of men vs. women in this scenario! Any woman who marries is essentially doomed to only every having the one husband unless her husband dies before she does. If the marriage is a failed marriage in every respect but sexual immorality, she can never divorce him, or if she does...can never remarry. I can't imagine this is what God intends for women. "

 

Is this different for men ie that men can remarry etc etc...so women are getting a bad end of the deal? Which as you say I also can not imagine God intending women to have lesser rights than men in this situation either. 

 

Yes the looking with lust and committing adultery in the heart thing is very complex as I know how God has created me as a man to be highly visually aroused, just my eyes might just happen to see out of chance a very sexy woman on the beach etc and before I have taken my eyes away I've already felt lust, she just may happen to be in my line of sight. Ofcourse I don't stare or make anyone uncomfortable, just be very discreet about it. So I find it hard to belive that is sin when I just don't even have the option if just happening yo notice in my line of sight the lust in the heart happens. This is how God made Mr and I don't know if that woman is in a monogamous or non monogamous relationship or not, she maybe with friends etc. 

I THINK the not casuing harm is key here. What Biblical reference did you use for potentially so long as for example it is not adultery if all parties are open to swinging therefore not adultery as it is not harmful. Also looking with lust is not harmful so long as no one is hurt and no victim?

Did you say it would be sin of looking with lust if you did not know or knew the woman was in a monogamous relationship? But if its done discretely or she is happy you are looking and she doesn't feel objectified then you still feel that would be sin to look with lust in that situation? 

[bbarnsworth 2,637]

2 hours ago, couplers said:

Do you mean "discreet?"  I don't read every post carefully, but yours I take seriously. 

My geek colors are showing through. I've studied Discrete Mathematics and it applies to some degree to the work I do. You caught me out. Well done Oops on my part

 

And thank you for the high praise I try to help here as best I can.

 

  

2 hours ago, couplers said:

Last time I attended Sunday Service with a friend, I looked around and saw people who couldn't even refrain from destroying their health by eating way too much. 

And glutony is one of the seven deadly sins.

Edited February 20, 2023 by bbarnsworth

[bbarnsworth 2,637]

1 hour ago, NEWTOTHIS34 said:

Thank you ever so much for that. I read and re read over. Very helpful.

Can I ask you when you mentioned Matthew was defending Jesus as the messiah, was that in refence to Matt 5 the sermon on the mount? When you mean Matthew was defending Jesus as the messiah you mean in him quoting Jesus words? Right?

I mean more directly that the Book of Matthew is a defense of Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God, and the fulfillment of prophecy. It is interesting that despite Matthew obviously depending upon Mark, it was decided by the synods and later the Pope that Matthew should be the first book of the New Testament. Curious, no?

 

1 hour ago, NEWTOTHIS34 said:

Also when you mentioned  " ...<snip for brevity>..."

 

Is this different for men ie that men can remarry etc etc...so women are getting a bad end of the deal? Which as you say I also can not imagine God intending women to have lesser rights than men in this situation either.

Is not 5:28 distinctly sexist? Even in reverse? A woman cannot commit adultery by looking upon a man with lust? I certainly don't think a woman is incapable of lusting after a man just by looking upon him. Is she, therefore, not capable of committing adultery in this way? That seems...reverse unfair In that sense perhaps women are getting the better end of the deal. But 5:32 switches it around; now the woman becomes the victim; ok the man commits the adultery (if her divorces her for reasons other than sexual immorality), but the woman forever more can not properly marry. Any man who would marry her is an adulterer. The passage does not make any reference to the status of the man divorcing her in such a scenario, except in 5:31 asserting he must give her a certificate of divorce. After that, it appears he is free to marry without any encumbrances of committing adultery even though he left his wife for reasons other  than sexual immorality. That strikes me as distinctly sexist. I don't think this is what God intended at all.

 

1 hour ago, NEWTOTHIS34 said:

Yes the looking with lust and committing adultery in the heart thing is very complex as I know how God has created me as a man to be highly visually aroused, just my eyes might just happen to see out of chance a very sexy woman on the beach etc and before I have taken my eyes away I've already felt lust, she just may happen to be in my line of sight. Ofcourse I don't stare or make anyone uncomfortable, just be very discreet about it. So I find it hard to belive that is sin when I just don't even have the option if just happening yo notice in my line of sight the lust in the heart happens. This is how God made Mr and I don't know if that woman is in a monogamous or non monogamous relationship or not, she maybe with friends etc. 

As you know, there is no way in which we can purify ourselves enough to enter Heaven. We are sinners, and no amount of cleansing can make us not so. It is by the grace of God through Jesus that we can enter into Heaven. God made us the way we are. This is not to apologize for a man being visually aroused, but rather to understand God knows he made us this way. Again, it's what we choose to do with it. That is the challenge. You note the experience of being on a beach. I find women in swimsuits attractive as well. I am also very drawn to women who are dressed in skirts/dresses, heels and hosiery, even more so than a woman in a beautiful swimsuit. I am reminded of a scene from years ago where I was in a department store. A woman who was an employee of the store was dressed in a skirt, heels, and hosiery. I was half way into the next section over from where she was working, and happened at that moment to be discreetly admiring her beauty. She dropped something, and knelt down to pick it up. In her not realizing I was looking at her, she knelt in such a way that her knees were pointed towards me, and I could clearly see all the way up her skirt. She wasn't intending on doing that. I could choose two actions here; continue to look, taking advantage of the unknowing slip up on her part, or avert my eyes and honor her dignity. I chose the latter of course. The former is, in my opinion, victimizing her and thus it is a sin, whether I'm married or not, whether she is married or not. A woman at a beach in a string bikini is no more making herself the intentional victim of lustful stares than the woman in the scene I describe. Some would argue otherwise.  I disagree. It's what we choose to do with our nature that makes the difference. As seen in protests against bad governance regarding victims of rape, a woman who is completely naked is still not asking to be victimized.

 

So, do I disgree with Matthew 5:28? In literal interpretation, absolutely I do. But, the Bible can not always be taken literally. Why would God create us as beings who are visually aroused by women, surround us with beautiful women, and then declare it a sin to be attracted to them? That, to me, doesn't make any sense at all. I don't think Matthew 5:28 should be interpreted literally. I think more discernment, more contemplate, and deeper understanding needs to occur. Some religions react to this paradox by insisting women must cover themselves, sometimes completely, in order to help a man not commit sin. Are men thus so incapable of not committing sin that the power to not commit sin lies not with men but with women? I don't think that makes sense either.

 

Matthew 5:28, despite its single sentence, is very, very deep and meaningful.

 

2 hours ago, NEWTOTHIS34 said:

I THINK the not casuing harm is key here. What Biblical reference did you use for potentially so long as for example it is not adultery if all parties are open to swinging therefore not adultery as it is not harmful. Also looking with lust is not harmful so long as no one is hurt and no victim?

Did you say it would be sin of looking with lust if you did not know or knew the woman was in a monogamous relationship? But if its done discretely or she is happy you are looking and she doesn't feel objectified then you still feel that would be sin to look with lust in that situation? 

 

I don't. I depend on various teachings in the Bible, to understand Jesus' message and sacrifice for us. At its core, it is the glorification of us, through the holy spirit and the Grace of God. Observe the juxtaposition of Romans 12:1 and 12:2. I don't think juxtapositions of passages in the Bible are by accident. In 12:1, our bodies are to be holy and acceptable to God. In 12:2, in testing we can observe the will of God. You don't have to actually have sex with someone other than your spouse to understand if something is adultery or not. At it's face, if we did have sex with someone other than our spouse and understood it to be adultery, I don't think God would condemn us forevermore for that act. If we continued to have sex with someone other than our spouse under similar circumstances, then condemnation seems quite appropriate. More deeply, with internal observation, consideration, discussion, prayer, and love, it is possible to test the idea of whether having sex with others than your spouse is adultery or not. That's within you and your spouse to do, to consider, to discern. My wife and I, after careful consideration, felt that it wasn't, if we approached it properly.

I don't believe in having to understand Satan in order to be closer to God. I make no deference to Satan, and refuse to grant any authority to Satan. I do need to know that Satan is the great liar, the great deceiver. Could Satan be deceiving my wife and I? Possibly. Do I believe it to be the case? Absolutely not. For 14 years my wife and I have enjoyed having an open marriage. There are overt acts of that open marriage, in having sex with others. The open marriage is all the time, whether we're in bed with someone else or not. That open marriage has been blessed with closeness, soulful intimacy, a deep bond, a deep trust that many find terrifying, and a very deep, abiding love. My wife and I have held hands together while each of us is having sex with other people. It's a beautiful moment. I have held her closely, emotionally intimately as she has enjoyed having another man inside of her. This has never been a negative experience. I will not say that every experience has been magnificent; some have been duds. But, they've never been negative. We've never come away from sharing a bed with others thinking we just hurt ourselves, hurt them, or in some way created or grew something that was negative. Could Satan have maintained this falsehood for 14 years? Sure, it's possible. Likely? I seriously doubt it. Lies show through. It might take time, but lies always show through.

 

We choose not to player with cheaters. Cheaters create harm. We have turned down people who are cheating. We also choose not to play with those who are not ready. My wife turned down having an MFM with a rather good looking young man who had little experience with relationships, and little understanding of his own emotions. He was more than 20 years my wife's junior, and his youthful lust and vigorous energy in bed would likely have been very enjoyable for her. He wasn't ready. Having sex with him would have been damaging to him. We would have been creating harm. We have played with people who had never played before, but we felt they were ready. There are some on this forum who won't play with those who haven't played before for precisely the reason of not wanting to cause harm, or to deal with the negative impacts they may have on them. We choose to play with the inexperienced if we think they are ready because all of us have to start somewhere, and better for us to be someone's first in swinging if we think they are ready, as we can help them experience swinging in a relationship positive way.

 

So can swinging be adultery? Absolutely. Can swinging be destructive? Absolutely. These are unquestioned. This forum has tales of people committing adultery. There are tales too of couples who are destroyed by swinging. Most recently, there was a couple who nearly divorced over it after playing once. The husband wasn't ready for it, and had unresolved memories and issues from the past that became heavily invigorated by the experience. She had a wonderful time, until it was obvious he wasn't, and after that he couldn't bring himself to even touch his own wife. Was that adultery? Yes. They weren't ready. My wife and I spent some time with another couple who were getting into swinging. We didn't think they were really ready for it, and we didn't play with them. They decided to play with another couple, and soon after that they divorced. Adultery? Yes. Some months later, we met up with the now single husband. Eventually, my wife played with him after we gained a better understanding of him. It was very good for him, and we had a good time. Adultery? No. Same husband, different circumstances. One was, in my opinion, adultery and the other not.

 

In sum; adultery isn't an absolute.

[GoldCoCouple 4,065]

I have posted on this several times in the past since I was raised in a rather strict religious household. Here's one of my answers:

 

I was raised in a very conservative Christian family myself so I have an inkling as to what she is going through as well. Best defense for Christians is a good offense: 

 

I've posted this before (heck, I may have posted this earlier in this thread) but for other Christians having issues with swinging and religion, first remember that the Old Testament had almost every marriage being between multiple people and it wasn't 'condemned', it wasn't even said to be wrong. It was almost needed to provide the labor for farming or herding. It just kind of faded away as more people moved into cities instead of needing the help being nomads/farmers/herders. But just because having multiple wives came to an end, it didn't mean that monogamy was the only accepted 'norm'. In Roman times, just because you were married, didn't mean you never had sex with anyone else. People 'think' that the Bible condemns most sexual activity, but in actuality it doesn't, and the Romans had plenty: bath houses, legal prostitution, orgies, gladiators (not just for fighting in the arena), homosexuality, sex with slaves, and more were all considered legal, allowable, and not a violation of the marriage.

 

Next, read this:

 

Monogamy Isn't Biblical, It's Roman

 

Finally, remember search (hidden in upper right corner) is your friend. There are a bunch of threads dealing with Christianity and swinging.

 

 

 

Here's a good book on the topic:

 

"Unprotected Texts: The Bible's Surprising Contradictions about Sex and Desire" by Jennifer Wrigtht Knust

 

This ought to at least give you some ammo to start the conversation rolling. Let us know how things progress!

[Numex 2,416]

On 2/18/2023 at 8:20 PM, bbarnsworth said:

When a man cums inside my wife, is he tainting her by leaving behind his semen?

I've never thought of it that way.  Daniela believes rather that she is stealing a part of him.

This is all kind of deep for me, but I know that her freedom has improved her and makes her happy. 

[couplers 4,640]

In my Catholic schooling we were taught that our conscience is a God-installed guide to what is right and wrong.  But beware, if you ignore it, it can be worn down and no longer work.

When I started having sex with the man who would become my husband while maintaining my relationship with my ex-fiancé (they both knew), it immediately felt absolutely right.  Like, shared by two men was what I was supposed to be.

What ultimately felt wrong was my jealousy of wanting them to be monogamous with me.  It was hard, but when I got over my jealousy, life was better.  For them certainly, but also for me.

In retrospect, my sin wasn't the premarital sex and adultery, it was the jealousy and not opening. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by couplers

[Numex 2,416]

On 2/21/2023 at 5:42 AM, couplers said:

my sin wasn't the premarital sex and adultery, it was the jealousy

Regarding swinging, that sums it up nicely.

[enhancer 1,585]

Can’t really be helpful due to us being agnostic, but I do believe in following through with the things I do believe in!  Although I was not brought up with religion I was brought up with values and knowledge of how to treat people how I want to be treated in all aspects of life.  Don’t do to others what you would not want done to you.  I do not want others to steal from me so I do not steal from others.  I do not want the person I dedicated my life to cheating on me emotionally or physically so I do not cheat on them.  I treat everyone I meet in life regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation or social standing with the same respect that I want to be treated with in return.  

 

I guess what my point is that I have a way and belief system that I live my life by and if I find an excuse to go against that I am really just living a lie!  That doesn’t work for me so I don’t.

 

That is not to say that I know anything about what the bible says is right or wrong, because I don’t.  I do know however way to many people that do claim to have a religion and most defiantly do not practice what they preach in regards to many things.

[NEWTOTHIS34 23]

15 hours ago, Numex said:

Regarding swinging, that sums it up nicely.

That's the thing I don't understand is how Jealously is a sin but how is it supposed to be acceptable if your partner is getting pleasure?

[NerdsAreFun 226]

There's no getting around that it is a sin.  But it's also impossible to live a sin free life.

[MidwestHoneys 358]

Sins are man made rules that zig and zag by men who thought they knew better. Hebrews, Romans, prophets, how can there be a definitive answer if someone new came around and changed the rules. Why are there so many religions if you believe there is a higher * who dictated the rules. Why is your believe better? 
Man decided the rules and changed the rules over and over again. Read the books you read and you decide what to do. Also read the laws that are on our legal books that say what you can do.  

[enhancer 1,585]

If you need to question you belief system regardless of what it is then maybe you have the wrong belief system for you.

[lcmim 1,082]

Ultimately in your case it will have to come down to what YOU can discern from scripture., not what someone else has discerned.

 

For your own peace of mind please do what research seems proper. A good concordance and linguistic guide will help. One of the problems is that all we have is a translation and more often than not a translation of a translation.

 

Translators, even the good ones are limited by the words available in their own tongue and their Knowledge of the language that they are translating. They are also affected by their own cultural biases, even when they try not to be.

 

A simple not sex related example of a pretty basic text would be one we are all familiar with. " Thou shalt not kill." Simple yes?? Not so much. I have seen people use it as biblical justification for being a vegetarian. Problem with that is that one must still kill the plants involved.

A translation closer to the original would be  "Thou shalt commit no murder."

 

That one got messed up with the best of intentions. The translator understood what he wanted to say. It just is not clear in the translation. The translator only had to go to a copy of the Jewish Scripture , which has been faithfully preserved word for word for thousands of years inside of essentially one tradition and culture.

It is also a pretty much accepted meaning.

 

Switching to your question things have been meddled with for thousands of year and hundreds of cultures to reach us.

If you concern is to discern the will of God on this topic, as viewed from the Christian Scriptures, a thorough scholastic deep dive is required.

 

 If you are just interested is my and others opinions, then you get what you pay for.

 

We have decided that there is not a problem with the acts themselves. There may be problems with the mindset and reasons that we and others have for doing them.

Basically any reason that devalues our marriage or other people is wrong.

 

That opinion though, in terms of your concern, is worth what it cost.

[Shore2Please 611]

John Lennon:

 

God is a Concept by which we measure our pain
I'll say it again
God is a Concept by which we measure our pain

I don't believe in magic
I don't believe in I-ching
I don't believe in Bible
I don't believe in Tarot
I don't believe in Hitler
I don't believe in Jesus
I don't believe in Kennedy
I don't believe in Buddha
I don't believe in Mantra
I don't believe in Gita
I don't believe in Yoga
I don't believe in Kings
I don't believe in Elvis
I don't believe in Zimmerman
I don't believe in Beatles

I just believe in me, Yoko and me, and that's reality
 

[Numex 2,416]

On 2/23/2023 at 8:14 AM, NEWTOTHIS34 said:

how Jealously is a sin but how is it supposed to be acceptable if your partner is getting pleasure?

Same problem with the religious who believe that consensual non-monogamy is a sin, but adultery is sort of ok because when some is doing it they know it is wrong, so it can be forgiven.

[ChristianSwinging 59]

Hello and sorry if my posting might have a few comprehensibility errors.

English is not my native language. We are a Christian couple that lives our faith, takes it seriously and also enjoys having sex with others.

It's certainly not swinging in the true sense, as it's more about threesomes with men, but a foursome with another couple would also be a sensual experience for us.

Since no one would be betrayed or used, we find it a natural way to share love with others.

For us it means not keeping our intimate love relationship as a couple to ourselves, but sharing it with others and we also see sexuality as a gift from God to us humans that belongs in good hands.

We see our love as something valuable that we like to share with others as a form of gratitude and thus make others happy and let them share in our love.

We have very good friends with men with whom my wife and I enjoy having intimate contact and who are very good for her and our love.

If one of the friends has sex with her, he is part of our happiness at that moment and we give him part of our relationship happiness in return.

There is no cheating because we decide or do everything together and we accept the men into our relationship together.

When it comes to the whole topic, you simply shouldn't forget the naturalness of the attraction between men and women and the naturalness of sexuality.

Lust is a gift from god that is not necessary to have children on your own.

Especially when you look at the body, the woman with the clitoris has an organ as a gift from god that is only responsible for her sole desire and pleasure. And this desire and sexuality has been given to us, with many facets and also with the possibility of having children.

We also have a clear Christian view on this.

Accepting sexuality as a wonderful, valuable gift, as well as the life given to us, are absolutely Christian foundations for us.

Our love has become much deeper, more intimate and stronger through sharing with others. And we can meet each other more openly and be more honest with each other.

[njbm 2,871]

On 2/23/2023 at 11:26 PM, Shore2Please said:

John Lennon:

 

God is a Concept by which we measure our pain
I'll say it again
God is a Concept by which we measure our pain

I don't believe in magic
I don't believe in I-ching
I don't believe in Bible
I don't believe in Tarot
I don't believe in Hitler
I don't believe in Jesus
I don't believe in Kennedy
I don't believe in Buddha
I don't believe in Mantra
I don't believe in Gita
I don't believe in Yoga
I don't believe in Kings
I don't believe in Elvis
I don't believe in Zimmerman
I don't believe in Beatles

I just believe in me, Yoko and me, and that's reality
 

Imagine there’s no heaven. It’s easy if you try. No hell below us. Above us only sky. 
Imagine all the people living life in peace. You may say that I’m a dreamer. But I’m not the only one. I hope someday you’ll join us. And the world will live as one. 

Edited February 8 by njbm