Wife is upset after apparent misunderstanding--need to get back on same page

[ConfusedHubby 118]

This will be a bit long and requires some background.  I'm still trying to process this myself and welcome any feedback or commentary from another perspective here.

 

As a brief background, we've been in the LS for about 4 years and the majority of our time in it was fantastic.  Our communication improved, our sexual appetites for one another jumped through the rough and we were just happier and healthier overall.   This took a turn about a year ago when we got involved with a single male that the wife took a shinning to.  He was a great looking guy that had a way of stretching our boundaries and nudging us towards actions which weren't even on our radar.  Aside from smashing boundaries like condoms for us, he ended up steering us towards our first bi MMF which happened in the spur of the moment and was not discussed with the wife in advance (problematic).  It also had the wife wanting to experiment with solo play and generally leading us to re-evaluate everything.   

 

We ultimate decided to stop seeing this male.  Although it was a ton of fun, we weren't entirely comfortable with all we'd put on the table and the wife, though supportive at the time, soured majorly to bi curious exploration.  There was also a underlying conflict where she believed him to be more interested in me, the male half, than her, which caused some resent.

 

During the time we were seeing this single male, we re-evaluated our stance on condoms and in her words it was decided that it 'really isn't that big a deal,  we should just be smart and use our judgement when we decide to go bare.'

 

Fast forwarding in time, we found ourselves fighting more after trivial stuff (more so the wife getting upset) and most of those fights, when explored and dissected and finally honestly addressed came down to the female half still not having processed the bisexual exploration.   Even though it was no longer happening and wouldn't without her blessing it became an ongoing theme which would re-emerge as a root cause when she was upset.  We ended up taking a 6 month break from the LS, looking to focus on ourselves  and work on our own communication, but if I'm being honest I feel all these avenues took a step back.  We communicated less freely and honestly, were too busy with family life to really entertain many date nights and when we did it took on a strained feel relative to the upbeat and fun rapport we'd enjoyed since entering the LS.  The wife also got a massive promotion at work as my own business hit record numbers and it just seemed our focuses were not on each other, even when I tried to bring it back there.  

 

After about a six month layover from the LS we recently made a return  to a friends party and it seemed to fit us like a old sweater.  We were happy, at ease, enjoying the hell out of the night and both enjoyed catching up with old friends, meeting new ones laughing and playing the night away, making time to reconnect with one another throughout.  It was a good night overall until the end.  The night ended with me having a very hot, high chemistry  first session with a friend I'd been meaning to connect with forever.  The wife sat and watched and enjoyed the show and all seemed to go really well until the end when we were done.   

 

I was cleaning up and disposing of my trash when the wife asks me if I had been using a condom.   I tell her I did, but also inform her that earlier in the night, with friends we'd been with several times before, we had gone without for a bit--it was then that hells fury opened.  I was open and candid about this as it was a topic we'd specifically discussed and  agreed upon in the past, but it was taken as a total betrayal and we left with her pretty much violently angry, swearing we were done with this forever, that  I ruined it and if I ever put my penis in another women we'd be getting a divorce.   

 

I tried to remind her of our specific discussions on the exact topic establishing this behavior but she wasn't having it.  Essentially stating that "it was a rule made during a time you were sucking guys dicks which is a period of time she wishes she could forget."

 

She's calmed down a bit since, but there is just so much to unpack it's difficult to know what to do.  There has never been any jealousy in the LS and we've always had a fabulous time until this single male experience seemed to ruin everything.  She's processed the bi-curious period as a complete negative and harbors resent and feels trust was breached as it happened without prior discussion and this negative sentiment seems to permeate every other aspect of the LS (and even vanilla life).

 

I feel like our communication is poorer when we try to be vanilla and I just walk around trying not to piss her off.  Further, I'm bored as hell, burned out with no outlets our frequency of sexual connection between the two of us is down and things are just dull.  I very much want us to be back to where we were even 1 week before the SM, when everything was perfect, our closeness was at an all time high and we just loved being around each other.

 

A lot to unpack here, but I'm just trying to figure out where to even go with any of this.  I don't really want to leave the LS for good, especially if our relationship doesn't return to it's prior closeness and I don't to disrupt my family life either.

 

We're not on the same page, but I want to  be--I can't take back decisions that were made, but I feel like I'm dealing with a moving target and don't even have an accurate idea of what to fix.

 

Help me vets.

 

 

[discreetplay 235]

We're only getting one side here so it is a little difficult to really dissect things. It would be interesting to read a write-up from her.

 

It sounds like counseling is needed. You have your view (above). She has hers. Somewhere in the middle is the truth. Why is she so upset about the oral you gave to a man? Why did she flip about the lack of condom use when you supposedly talked about not wearing them. I doubt she will ever tell you. A third party, mediator, may be able to get to the root of it.

 

It does sound like your lifestyle days are over unless you get to the root of the problem. And the way your post reads - you're "bored as hell", "things are dull", etc - I'd lay money that your marriage won't survive. 

 

Find a counselor, quickly.

 

[enhancer 1,584]

Well the truth is nobody, but her can know how she is feeling about all this!  Until you can get the communication back on track without insults I sure as hell would not be bringing other people into the bedroom.

 

Did you communicate to her before the male bi experience that you were bi?  If not maybe she does not feel your communication was as good as she thought it was in the first place.  She might be like my lady who is bi herself, but finds male on male activity to be a big turn off which is okay with me, because I feel the same way. Or maybe she feels you took away the thing that is hers in the lifestyle by playing with the other guy?  I really have no idea, because I am not her.  

[PeterJ 940]

2 hours ago, ConfusedHubby said:

 

A lot to unpack here, but I'm just trying to figure out where to even go with any of this.  I don't really want to leave the LS for good, especially if our relationship doesn't return to it's prior closeness and I don't to disrupt my family life either.

 

We're not on the same page, but I want to  be--I can't take back decisions that were made, but I feel like I'm dealing with a moving target and don't even have an accurate idea of what to fix.

CH, not enjoyable when fun recreational sex suddenly blows up in your face. I’m sorry this has happened to you and your wife.

 

You asked for input; here’s mine: Assuming your description of the incident is accurate, your wife’s response — particularly beyond the immediate aftermath — seems out of proportion to the degree of your alleged offense. Greatly out of proportion. This suggests to me that what is troubling her is something other than, or in addition to, what she’s telling (and likely herself) is the problem.

 

My suggestion is that the two of you do some couples counseling/therapy with a lifestyle-friendly therapist. These days they aren’t difficult to find. And if you live in a rural area far from a medium-sized or large metro area many therapists offer video sessions. (Google something like "lifestyle-friendly therapist near me". We live 20 minutes from the closest grocery store and when I did that search just now it gave me several options less than an hour away as well as others accessible via Zoom.)

 

 

[ConfusedHubby 118]

4 minutes ago, discreetplay said:

We're only getting one side here so it is a little difficult to really dissect things. It would be interesting to read a write-up from her.

 

 - This is true.  I've tried to remain neutral in my recounting of facts,  but it's a virtual impossibility when you're the one recounting.

 

It sounds like counseling is needed. You have your view (above). She has hers. Somewhere in the middle is the truth. Why is she so upset about the oral you gave to a man? Why did she flip about the lack of condom use when you supposedly talked about not wearing them. I doubt she will ever tell you. A third party, mediator, may be able to get to the root of it.

 

-  I'm open to and have suggested this.  The suggestion seemed to hurt her.

 

-  Regarding the oral to a man thing, it wasn't something we discussed or I even really knew I had an interest in.  It was a hot afterthought with porn every now and again, but there was no discussion or preparation for it--just kind of went with it in the heat of the moment and it is readily conceded that this shouldn't have been sprung on her like that.  It remains the turning point where things went from awesome to problematic.   

 

It does sound like your lifestyle days are over unless you get to the root of the problem. And the way your post reads - you're "bored as hell", "things are dull", etc - I'd lay money that your marriage won't survive. 

- It does sound like the LS days are coming to an end which I would hate quite a bit.  Yes, my words are harsh regarding being bored and feeling life is dull, but frankly thats how it feels.   It feels like life these days is nothing but careers and chamfering kids to way too many activities without vacations or date nights mixed in.  We barely have any time these days to hang with even vanilla friends.   The LS was our big hobby, it was our secret outlet and thing we loved doing together, that we looked forward to, that kept things spicy and exciting and that we talked freely about.  Now it's like I chose my words carefully and don't go into any 'taboo' areas to avoid conflict.

 

-certainly hope the marriage isn't over.  We've got a loving household, amazing kids, careers on autopilot and a lot of good things in our futures.

4 minutes ago, discreetplay said:

Find a counselor, quickly.

 

 

[ConfusedHubby 118]

10 minutes ago, enhancer said:

Well the truth is nobody, but her can know how she is feeling about all this!  Until you can get the communication back on track without insults I sure as hell would not be bringing other people into the bedroom.

- As it is, a return to the LS at all is uncertain.  We did discuss if we ever return it would be in more controllable environments.  We also discussed still hanging out with some LS friends, without play, which would go a long way towards keeping things fresh and interesting.  Just the fun, flirty sexual energy with like minded people can be enough--I don't necessarily *need* to fuck other people.  

 

Did you communicate to her before the male bi experience that you were bi?  If not maybe she does not feel your communication was as good as she thought it was in the first place.

-  You are spot on.  I failed here.  There was no communication in this realm whatsoever and it wasn't something I knew I even wanted.  He'd implied he was open to that, but I'd never really engaged that type of convo in our group chats, but in the heat of the moment, It kind of just happened.  It was very hot and I enjoyed the experience, but it would be totally fair to describe it as having been sprung on her.

 

 She might be like my lady who is bi herself, but finds male on male activity to be a big turn off which is okay with me, because I feel the same way. Or maybe she feels you took away the thing that is hers in the lifestyle by playing with the other guy?  I really have no idea, because I am not her.  

-  Yes. she is bi and now seems to find male/male contact a turn off.  This was the abridged version of what happened, but there were a couple of months in between of bi play which were sought out, setup and initiated by her.  It seems she was deeply conflicted finding it a turn on at times but ultimately not liking it.

 

-  Taking away something that was hers was indeed a subject that came up.  The single guy was supposed to be for her and she suspected he was more into myself.  In fact that is what drove some of her desire for single play--she wanted the validation he was interested in her without me there.

[MrMrsswinger 202]

29 minutes ago, discreetplay said:

I'd lay money that your marriage won't survive

I'm with Discreetplay here. Your words are harsh, strong, but if they're accurate, the end result is obvious.

 

There are many people who live in a marriage, continue a marriage because of the kids. If you're bored, things are dull, etc, find a new hobby but stay where you are. Just my two cents. A divorce is a nuclear bomb on everything the kids know. Don't know ages of the kids but I've seen what happens many times in my career when parents split. 

 

32 minutes ago, discreetplay said:

Find a counselor, quickly.

Again, agree 100% on this.

[ConfusedHubby 118]

20 minutes ago, PeterJ said:

CH, not enjoyable when fun recreational sex suddenly blows up in your face. I’m sorry this has happened to you and your wife.

 - Indeed it's not.  Especially when we both had a phenomenal time up until that point.  

 

You asked for input; here’s mine: Assuming your description of the incident is accurate, your wife’s response — particularly beyond the immediate aftermath — seems out of proportion to the degree of your alleged offense. Greatly out of proportion. This suggests to me that what is troubling her is something other than, or in addition to, what she’s telling (and likely herself) is the problem.

- 100%  but this has been the trend.  She will blow up disproportionate to the level of what the infraction.  I will attempt to talk it through logically and almost each time it comes back to her still not being able to process the bisexual encounter and that she needs time.  This is in spite of me assuring her we do not have to revisit it.

 

My suggestion is that the two of you do some couples counseling/therapy with a lifestyle-friendly therapist. These days they aren’t difficult to find. And if you live in a rural area far from a medium-sized or large metro area many therapists offer video sessions. (Google something like "lifestyle-friendly therapist near me". We live 20 minutes from the closest grocery store and when I did that search just now it gave me several options less than an hour away as well as others accessible via Zoom.)

-  This may be what we need to do.  Lifestyle-friendly being the operative, but in the past she seemed resistant to the idea of therapy.  

 

 

 

[lovefest04 698]

As has been stated, I too am sorry you and her are going through such a rough patch.

 

I agree that this might have a lot more to do with her and him than you and him. Even beyond him as her's. Maybe she had really deep feelings for him. Maybe there was something about her and him seeing each other without you and now that's blown. We really don't know, but I sense that she is shameful or guilty or maybe looking to blow up the marriage, even if unconsciously.

 

The only solution here is to get counseling. Maybe separate to start if that helps her work through her feelings. But, the two of you are not likely to really get to the bottom of this alone.

 

Sounds like you both have what many would consider a wonderful life in terms of family, work, income, and add to that adventurous spirits for play, recreation and discovery both in and out of the bedroom. Feels like there is certainly something worth fighting for.

 

Wish you both the best.

[ConfusedHubby 118]

8 minutes ago, lovefest04 said:

As has been stated, I too am sorry you and her are going through such a rough patch.

 

I agree that this might have a lot more to do with her and him than you and him. Even beyond him as her's. Maybe she had really deep feelings for him. Maybe there was something about her and him seeing each other without you and now that's blown. We really don't know, but I sense that she is shameful or guilty or maybe looking to blow up the marriage, even if unconsciously.

-  This is another avenue I did not go into, but yes...  I do believe she was more into him than any other swing partner to the point that I actually asked her a couple times if it was something I should be concerned about.  He just unlocked something in her and our old boundaries came down--hell they came down for both of us--an MMF may have been a hot thought while jerking off, but it wasn't something I actually envisioned myself ever participating in.    So yes, I left out that detail, but there were certainly some deeper feelings than normal that she felt towards him.   I also thinks there is underlying resent towards me that we decided to stop seeing him--like she  blames me.

I know I was pretty comfortable with most scenarios, but I was entirely uncomfortable with the idea of her spending the night with this particular guy.  In hindsight it did get thrown back at me that she was uncomfortable that the Bi situation was sprung on her so it was 'only fair' or something to that effect.

 

8 minutes ago, lovefest04 said:

 

The only solution here is to get counseling. Maybe separate to start if that helps her work through her feelings. But, the two of you are not likely to really get to the bottom of this alone.

- I've started googling enm friendly therapists based on the consensus of this thread so far...

 

8 minutes ago, lovefest04 said:

Sounds like you both have what many would consider a wonderful life in terms of family, work, income, and add to that adventurous spirits for play, recreation and discovery both in and out of the bedroom. Feels like there is certainly something worth fighting for.

-  There is a lot to fight for.  We've been together for half of our lives at this point.  We've got a couple of amazing kids, a great home, business is good--we're both hoping to retire early (mid 40s) if things continue...    It just seems like the better things go with careers and business the less time we have for one another.  I can deal with that for a few years if there is  a light at the end of the tunnel.

 

Wish you both the best.

-  A sincere thank you.   I love her deeply and want us back on the same page and happy.

 

[PeterJ 940]

15 minutes ago, ConfusedHubby said:

 

"…it comes back to her still not being able to process the bisexual encounter."

 

CH, in another comment you expanded on the matter of having oral with the other man, noting that it had become an ongoing thing and that you enjoyed it. You also noted that your wife "is bi". Women in lifestyle situations, it’s my observation, will frequently engage in FF oral. In some cases they really are into having sex with other women, but often the sex is mostly just performative. There are less cultural and societal prohibitions against female same-sex activity than MM. And most men enjoy consuming FF erotica (look at how much FF content there is on porn sites) and find those acts compelling IRL. For sure I know of women who enjoy watching their male partners engaging sexually with other men, but my sense is that it’s relatively rare. I’ve reread my original response to your initial post; perhaps your wife’s response to you having sex with the other guy, though ungenerous and somewhat out of proportion, isn't so surprising. 
 

You said you told your wife you were willing to forego sex with men. If the two of you do go into therapy together one issue you’ll need to explore is whether you really are willing to give up this newly discovered part of your sexuality. And if you do wish to continue engaging in sexual activities with other men, your wife will need to decide whether she can support you in this regard or whether it’s a deal-breaker.
 

 

17 minutes ago, ConfusedHubby said:

 

"Lifestyle-friendly being the operative, but in the past she seemed resistant to the idea of therapy."  

 

‘’I’m really eager to get into therapy because I think it would be fun" said no one, ever. Sometimes the alternative to therapy has to be so frightening there is no less scary option than therapy. 
 

Like working out at the gym, in therapy it’s often a case of "no pain, no gain." But by working through sometimes challenging matters individuals/couples are able to live more effective and happier lives. I hope your wife will confront her reluctance to therapy and the two of you can use this tool to work through your current challenges.

[ConfusedHubby 118]

Just now, PeterJ said:

"…it comes back to her still not being able to process the bisexual encounter."

 

CH, in another comment you expanded on the matter of having oral with the other man, noting that it had become an ongoing thing and that you enjoyed it. You also noted that your wife "is bi". Women in lifestyle situations, it’s my observation, will frequently engage in FF oral. In some cases they really are into having sex with other women, but often the sex is mostly just performative. There are less cultural and societal prohibitions against female same-sex activity than MM. And most men enjoy consuming FF erotica (look at how much FF content there is on porn sites) and find those acts compelling IRL. For sure I know of women who enjoy watching their male partners engaging sexually with other men, but my sense is that it’s relatively rare. I’ve reread my original response to your initial post; perhaps your wife’s response to you having sex with the other guy, though ungenerous and somewhat out of proportion, isn't so surprising. 

 

- There is a double standard for sure, but as a point of information there was never actual sex between myself and another male, nor even kissing.  There was some oral play only.

 

Just now, PeterJ said:

You said you told your wife you were willing to forego sex with men. If the two of you do go into therapy together one issue you’ll need to explore is whether you really are willing to give up this newly discovered part of your sexuality. And if you do wish to continue engaging in sexual activities with other men, your wife will need to decide whether she can support you in this regard or whether it’s a deal-breaker.
-  I went 41 years before my first M/M experience and a have played orally with exactly 4 men, all in the presence of my wife, all scenarios (except the first) having been curated by her.  I found the fluid exchanges very hot and would happily engage if she were interested, but its never been a significant part of my sexual identity and is something that doesn't need revisiting.  The conflict here doesn't seem to be my desire to continue this activity so much as her having difficulty reconciling it has happened in the past.

 

"Lifestyle-friendly being the operative, but in the past she seemed resistant to the idea of therapy."  

 

‘’I’m really eager to get into therapy because I think it would be fun" said no one, ever. Sometimes the alternative to therapy has to be so frightening there is no less scary option than therapy. 
- I hear you...

 

Like working out at the gym, in therapy it’s often a case of "no pain, no gain." But by working through sometimes challenging matters individuals/couples are able to live more effective and happier lives. I hope your wife will confront her reluctance to therapy and the two of you can use this tool to work through your current challenges.

 

[NWAtlSwing 522]

2 hours ago, PeterJ said:

 

My suggestion is that the two of you do some couples counseling/therapy with a lifestyle-friendly therapist. These days they aren’t difficult to find. And if you live in a rural area far from a medium-sized or large metro area many therapists offer video sessions. (Google something like "lifestyle-friendly therapist near me". We live 20 minutes from the closest grocery store and when I did that search just now it gave me several options less than an hour away as well as others accessible via Zoom.)

 

 

Speaking as a therapist, I agree 100% There is more going on than the LS part of things.

[ConfusedHubby 118]

17 hours ago, NWAtlSwing said:

Speaking as a therapist, I agree 100% There is more going on than the LS part of things.

I've had this suspicion as well for some time.  I don't have many friends I can talk to about this stuff and for the ones I do, it's hard to articulate to a non ENM viewpoint, but I definitely feel like something is broken but that it isn't necessarily the LS part...   

[TeamCalgary 168]

Please allow me to offer another perspective; that of sharing and focus.

 

When you began with this SM, your wife was the centre of the attention and you were sharing her with this SM.

 

As things progressed, the focus shifted from your wife, to you, with your wife's role shifting from being shared, to sharing their spouse.

 

This is a significant change in the dynamic of your relationship and one which it appears to be new/novel to your situation.

Perhaps she did not anticipate this and is having issues dealing with it. 

[ConfusedHubby 118]

Very interesting perspective, which I appreciate you sharing.   I'm not quite sure this is it, as we've had plenty of FFM experience and in the LS she's frequently held the role as my wing man, closer and even camera man.   

 

The MM aspect may have complicated this (though it hasn't happened for 9+ months) but generally speaking, she's been the one who has pushed and encouraged me to have experiences.  

[MrMrsswinger 202]

2 hours ago, ConfusedHubby said:

she's been the one who has pushed and encouraged me to have experiences.

This is common. A couple talks about how sexy it would be to get into the lifestyle. The talk and fantasies enhance their sex. They give it a try with the idea of "if we don't like it we'll bail". One party, usually the male, thinks too much and can't perform. They boil over watching their wife having a blast while they remain a wet noodle. The after-experience talk is a disaster. Husband can't get rid of the visual, the sounds of their wife moaning ring in their ears. Relationship is finished.

 

This discussion and encouragement of MM interaction seems to follow this scenario. Hot in fantasy, terrible in reality.

 

[ConfusedHubby 118]

3 minutes ago, MrMrsswinger said:

This is common. A couple talks about how sexy it would be to get into the lifestyle. The talk and fantasies enhance their sex. They give it a try with the idea of "if we don't like it we'll bail". One party, usually the male, thinks too much and can't perform. They boil over watching their wife having a blast while they remain a wet noodle. The after-experience talk is a disaster. Husband can't get rid of the visual, the sounds of their wife moaning ring in their ears. Relationship is finished.

 

This discussion and encouragement of MM interaction seems to follow this scenario. Hot in fantasy, terrible in reality.

 

I'm not sure I followed any of this, tbh.   Everyone is the hero in their own story, but as far as my feedback goes, "wet noodle" couldn't be farther from actuality...   like, at all.

 

I am also not certain I picked up on any encouragement towards mm interactions.  It's a non issue in this topic.   Did I enjoy it?  Sure..  am I seeking it? No.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MrMrsswinger 202]

Did I misread your post, the section I quoted from you, where your wife encouraged "experiences"?

 

What I was saying is that many couples talk about getting into the lifestyle. The fantasy is hot. When they try it out, one party can't handle it (usually the man) and the relationship breaks down. In your situation, it appeared (from your writing) that your wife encouraged "experiences" and then when you did experience something she lost it. I don't believe it has anything to do with discussing it first but rather her seeing the MM and not being able to handle it.

 

The wet noodle is usually the guy's experience when they first start and they get upset when their wife has a blast with an experienced and performing other male. That was just an example of a common occurrence where one party sees something they can't handle and the relationship breaks down. In your situation you obviously performed, and seem to be bragging in your response to my post, and your wife can't handle it.

 

Your boredom will lead to a breakdown in your relationship. Frustration she wants out of the lifestyle. You seeming less and less interested in the boring relations without more people involved....breakdown. IT's coming unless therapy can save you.

[Davdia 119]

On 5/24/2023 at 11:03 AM, ConfusedHubby said:

our first bi MMF which happened in the spur of the moment and was not discussed with the wife in advance

I don’t blame her at all!
The reason we have rules and don’t cross them without discussion is simple, it’s the limit of our comfort level.

Crossing boundaries is crossing boundaries, how would you feel if she crossed your boundaries and you didn’t discuss it first?

Heat of the moment, happened so fast, both are excuses for divorce court.

You are the issue here, not her, you need to stop swinging until you are adult enough to understand that. 
 

 

[Fundamental Law 2,885]

This is an interesting and sobering thread.  

 

There are only two people who understand a marriage and its dynamics--the people in the marriage. They and the marriage are continuously shaped by events both internal and external to the marriage. Over time, there is a tendency to take for granted the wonderful parts of a marriage and to focus on the problems. Eventually, that situation inverts: long married-couples seem to be happiest in their 60s and 70s and have chosen to forget the rougher patches. 

 

One of the more useful questions to ask is "how did I fall in love with this person, and why am I still in love with this person?"  No one stays the same and marriage is about growing together. Opinions change, perceptions change, physical appearances change, fitness changes, health changes,...  Our perception/perspective/opinion is that what brings and keeps two people together are two general categories. First, they share several values. Not behaviors (particular religion, political affiliation, work, hobbies) that derive from those values, rather the values themselves--things like honesty, trustworthiness, honoring people as individuals.   When something goes amiss in our relationship, we ask ourselves whether we have respected our shared values.   The other thing that keeps people together is the balance between shared identity and individualism. Older couples often have two amusing but important characteristics. They start to look like each other--maybe they both have on a blue top and khaki pants. Or the same style eyewear. This sort of mirroring is a symbol of a deep bond. Yet they also gently bicker about superficial things. All of this is about being "stronger together" but still being able to honor the other as an individual.  Sex styles and expressions of sexuality can be interpreted in these frameworks. 

 

Yes, the OP is in an awkward position personally and maritally. Yes, it is key to understand why his spouse is seeing things as she is seeing them; understanding her experienced reality right now has led to the posting and so on. We would only gently remind that managing through rough patches is part of all long-term relationships, and if two people genuinely care about and for each other, a solution can always be found. 

 

 

[couplers 4,616]

On 5/24/2023 at 9:03 AM, ConfusedHubby said:

the wife asks me if I had been using a condom.   I tell her I did, but also inform her that earlier in the night, with friends we'd been with several times before, we had gone without for a bit--it was then that hells fury opened.

I have nothing to add to this thread except that for us women (and I’ve found for my guys as well) when a man ejaculates bareback into a woman's vagina, it takes sex with that person to the ultimate level of possible reproduction.  Not that those emotions associated with this intimacy, a part of that man is living inside her, are necessarily are a bad thing (when birth control is in place) but there may be unanticipated instinctual reactions.

[ConfusedHubby 118]

12 hours ago, MrMrsswinger said:

Did I misread your post, the section I quoted from you, where your wife encouraged "experiences"?

 

What I was saying is that many couples talk about getting into the lifestyle. The fantasy is hot. When they try it out, one party can't handle it (usually the man) and the relationship breaks down. In your situation, it appeared (from your writing) that your wife encouraged "experiences" and then when you did experience something she lost it. I don't believe it has anything to do with discussing it first but rather her seeing the MM and not being able to handle it.

 

The wet noodle is usually the guy's experience when they first start and they get upset when their wife has a blast with an experienced and performing other male. That was just an example of a common occurrence where one party sees something they can't handle and the relationship breaks down. In your situation you obviously performed, and seem to be bragging in your response to my post, and your wife can't handle it.

 

Your boredom will lead to a breakdown in your relationship. Frustration she wants out of the lifestyle. You seeming less and less interested in the boring relations without more people involved....breakdown. IT's coming unless therapy can save you.

I think we both may have had minor misinterpretations, which are likely caused by lack of clarity on my part, sorry.  When I said she encouraged experiences, I guess what I was trying to articulate is her pushing things along and helping me close in those instances it was obvious I and another female were interested in one another but for one reason or other were choking on the next move--she's encourage and push things along for me.  I guess another way she'd do this would just be encouragement to explore fun scenarios and just enjoy things.  Except for a period of about a month after the MMF, during which she sought out scenarios involving other oral bi males, there has been no encouragement for it, nor any sought.  I'm fine leaving this dynamic behind.

 

At this point we're pretty experienced with the dynamics of swinging and have been swapping for years, so I'm not fully certain it's the unprecedented new experience thing messing one of us up so much as residual anger.

 

 

[ConfusedHubby 118]

7 hours ago, Davdia said:

I don’t blame her at all!
The reason we have rules and don’t cross them without discussion is simple, it’s the limit of our comfort level.

Crossing boundaries is crossing boundaries, how would you feel if she crossed your boundaries and you didn’t discuss it first?

Heat of the moment, happened so fast, both are excuses for divorce court.

You are the issue here, not her, you need to stop swinging until you are adult enough to understand that. 
 

 

- I take ownership of that mis-step and posted in bold above "I failed here".  I do acknowledge it and understand it caused fall out, but I should also add this was a year ago and we've both had at least a dozen partners since my screw up.  We've been doing this for a few years and don't really have rules, per se, more like guidelines, but I think the introduction of more structured rules would certainly avoid misunderstandings.   

 

For the record, I'm not trying to pile on blame my wife so much as I am trying to understand what is going on internally and devise a strategy going forward so we can return to having our cake and eating it too, as we were previously enjoying.

[EastInWest 1,524]

Whatever the facts here, it's just my anecdotal experience that that "moving target" feeling often indicates someone has lost hope for the relationship and is generating rapid-fire complaints in the hopes of ending it without having to be the villain and pull the trigger.

 

If she feels that way, however, it doesn't mean it's over. Get thee to sex-positive couples' counseling.

[ConfusedHubby 118]

1 hour ago, Fundamental Law said:

This is an interesting and sobering thread.  

 

There are only two people who understand a marriage and its dynamics--the people in the marriage. They and the marriage are continuously shaped by events both internal and external to the marriage. Over time, there is a tendency to take for granted the wonderful parts of a marriage and to focus on the problems. Eventually, that situation inverts: long married-couples seem to be happiest in their 60s and 70s and have chosen to forget the rougher patches. 

 

One of the more useful questions to ask is "how did I fall in love with this person, and why am I still in love with this person?"  No one stays the same and marriage is about growing together. Opinions change, perceptions change, physical appearances change, fitness changes, health changes,...  Our perception/perspective/opinion is that what brings and keeps two people together are two general categories. First, they share several values. Not behaviors (particular religion, political affiliation, work, hobbies) that derive from those values, rather the values themselves--things like honesty, trustworthiness, honoring people as individuals.   When something goes amiss in our relationship, we ask ourselves whether we have respected our shared values.   The other thing that keeps people together is the balance between shared identity and individualism. Older couples often have two amusing but important characteristics. They start to look like each other--maybe they both have on a blue top and khaki pants. Or the same style eyewear. This sort of mirroring is a symbol of a deep bond. Yet they also gently bicker about superficial things. All of this is about being "stronger together" but still being able to honor the other as an individual.  Sex styles and expressions of sexuality can be interpreted in these frameworks. 

 

Yes, the OP is in an awkward position personally and maritally. Yes, it is key to understand why his spouse is seeing things as she is seeing them; understanding her experienced reality right now has led to the posting and so on. We would only gently remind that managing through rough patches is part of all long-term relationships, and if two people genuinely care about and for each other, a solution can always be found. 

 

 

- Thanks for this thought out post.  I do want to say from the onset, that I am very much in love with my wife and stress once again that we've built a great and comfortable life together.  While I understand there's a tendency to take people for granted, I'd say in our case it  likely swings the opposite direction as I worship my wife and always want to be around her.  One of my biggest complaints in our relationship is probably that we don't get enough time to ourselves with our busy lives.  But yes, it's easy to remember how and why we fell in love and it is a love worth working for.

[ConfusedHubby 118]

29 minutes ago, couplers said:

I have nothing to add to this thread except that for us women (and I’ve found for my guys as well) when a man ejaculates bareback into a woman's vagina, it takes sex with that person to the ultimate level of possible reproduction.  Not that those emotions associated with this intimacy, a part of that man is living inside her, are necessarily are a bad thing (when birth control is in place) but there may be unanticipated instinctual reactions.

- Bareback does indeed amp things up significantly.  For the record, I'm snipped, so there are no swimmers in my ejaculate, but I could grasp what you're saying and both the wife and I *greatly* prefer bare--much stronger connection...   the wife also loves the feeling of a man cuming inside her, though creampies are on the rarer side for her in LS play.   This is  why the recent blow up is confusing--this isn't unchartered territory.  

[ConfusedHubby 118]

19 minutes ago, EastInWest said:

Whatever the facts here, it's just my anecdotal experience that that "moving target" feeling often indicates someone has lost hope for the relationship and is generating rapid-fire complaints in the hopes of ending it without having to be the villain and pull the trigger.

 

If she feels that way, however, it doesn't mean it's over. Get thee to sex-positive couples' counseling.

- Interesting thoughts on the moving target part.  I don't necessarily think he's of the mindset that we're nearing the end, but its difficult to know what is going on inside her head.

 

As an update, I did ask her over a glass of wine last night if she would entertain doing a couples workshop with a counselor to try and work on and help with our communication.  She is resistant to it and us needing it, but it did lead us to talk for a while last night, better getting things sorted in our heads. 

 

There's an almost tacit withdrawal of her extreme anger from this weekend, though there is also a pro-offered agreement that from now on we don't work on past assumptions/precedent in the LS.  If/when we get back on the horse, we'll treat it as new territory and communicate as if we were beginners again.   

 

he seemed to like this idea and we were able to have a pleasant and sex filled night together.

 

 

[lovefest04 698]

1 hour ago, ConfusedHubby said:

I'm not trying to pile on blame

Just have to say and I realize this may be a bit off topic.

 

I find blame to be so unproductive. The need to blame or even to find out who did what is about ego, usually. Yes, it's great to discuss a situation, determine the missteps but then move on. Relationships are SO MUCH more complex than right or wrong, blame or forgiveness.

 

A previous post talked about love and why you fell in love with her and her with you. So, much more productive, in my pee brain, to focus on the bigger picture, focus on love, on the relationship.

 

Relationships are hard and no one should enter a marriage or long term commitment with any expectation that there will never be slip ups or mistakes. In fact, we should expect them. For us, what's important is how we communicate and listen after the fact. Openly, honestly, lovingly and with forgiveness,  knowing we are committed to working it out, setting aside our egos because getting to the other side together is ALWAYS whats most important.

 

This coming from a guy that's been happily married for 44 years to my high school sweetheart. And believe me, we've had our ups and downs, some right her in the LS. But, nothing has ever been so consuming to rip apart the foundation we've built.

 

Again, my best to you both.

 

 

 

[ConfusedHubby 118]

22 hours ago, jamesok said:

It nearly sounds like to me that y'all just need to take the time to talk it all out and get to the root of the matter. I know, easier said than done in todays society with all the obligations we end up with. Sounds like y'all are gettin' back on the right track though. I always remember two pieces of advice I'd gotten from long time married couples when I got married. Never go to bed angry and if momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. Hate to know how many days I've called in sick because we were up all night sortin' everything out, but it was worth every penny I didn't make. Just my two cents from a newbie that's only been married for 15 years and in the LS a little bit for only 1. It's worth what ya paid for it lol.

-It's starting to feel this way, which is a relief.  The anger and upsetness of the other night was very foreign to me, but we had a pretty good week.

 

Very productive around the house, snuck in a lunch and a dinner date and have kept things upbeat.   

 

Not sure when she will be ready to venture back into LS activity, but we did discuss that we still want to hang out with LS friends and just not have expectation of play on the table.   

[lcmim 1,081]

"Not sure when she will be ready to venture back into LS activity, but we did discuss that we still want to hang out with LS friends and just not have expectation of play on the table. "

 

A perfectly viable option if your LS friends are truly friends.  Mutual support should be part of the game.

 Taking your time about coming back should be worth it.

[ConfusedHubby 118]

I suppose we will see.  We do have a fun time with LS friends and don't always get sexual...    We do 75%+ of the time though, lol. 

[Numex 2,409]

6 hours ago, ConfusedHubby said:

We do have a fun time with LS friends and don't always get sexual...    We do 75%+ of the time though

Since we are in a closed group of married couples, there is more, sometimes much more, to our relationships than just sex.  We don't just get together for couples swaps or group sex, often times there are dates.  In our case, my wife often goes out with another couple while I'll go out with just another man's wife.

 

Thinking about it, for us at least, although these dates often end up with sex, they end up less often than when we are together with one or more other couples, which is almost 100% having sex as a conclusion.  Then there are the calls from specific other partners just for sex.  Daniela gets (and makes) those calls more than I do.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Numex

[ConfusedHubby 118]

21 hours ago, Numex said:

Since we are in a closed group of married couples, there is more, sometimes much more, to our relationships than just sex.  We don't just get together for couples swaps or group sex, often times there are dates.  In our case, my wife often goes out with another couple while I'll go out with just another man's wife.

 

Thinking about it, for us at least, although these dates often end up with sex, they end up less often than when we are together with one or more other couples, which is almost 100% having sex as a conclusion.  Then there are the calls from specific other partners just for sex.  Daniela gets (and makes) those calls more than I do.

This does sound like a fun dynamic and where we may end up in a few years when the kids are out of the house, but for the time being we pretty much only play together and only even really see LS friends together.  In fact, our schedule barely affords us time with vanilla friends apart.  

 

We certainly don't want to wish away our time with the kids, but it does get extremely  exhausting when you've gotta make adult social plans 6 weekends in advance and we may not even be in the mood to talk about that stuff when the window to actually plan it exists.  

[bbarnsworth 2,637]

ConfusedHubby; when we first got into swinging, our kids were young. Finding time to swing was a real problem, especially as one of our kinds needed additional knowledge to care for. Not special needs, but additional knowledge needed and not everybody was comfortable with it.

 

Our solution; we usually played together, but my wife would play solo from time to time and bring home all the juicy stories

[ConfusedHubby 118]

I can definitely identify with what you're saying here.  The needs of our kids are a little different,  but the time consuming nature is the same.

 

While our solution has been similar as far as playing together, we have not ventured to the solo thing.  During the time we were playing with that bi SM, my wife expressed interest in trying to have solo play and extend the same liberty to me, but I was not at a point where I was ready for it, especially with that particular person who seemed capable of breaking down all our boundaries.  

 

Fast forwarding in time a bit, I started coming around to the idea more and have offered a willingness a couple of times to allow her to pursue, but she's said she has no interest and admitted her interest was limited to that single male, in primary part because she wanted to experience him without me and ensure she was his primary interest.

 

We aren't a same room couple, but I'm not sure we'll ever get to a point of true separate play--we consider ourselves "same venue".

 

[Numex 2,409]

On 5/30/2023 at 12:54 PM, ConfusedHubby said:

This does sound like a fun dynamic and where we may end up in a few years when the kids are out of the house, but for the time being we pretty much only play together and only even really see LS friends together.  In fact, our schedule barely affords us time with vanilla friends apart.  

 

We certainly don't want to wish away our time with the kids, but it does get extremely  exhausting when you've gotta make adult social plans 6 weekends in advance and we may not even be in the mood to talk about that stuff when the window to actually plan it exists.  

How close do your play partners live?  For us, especially Daniela, getting in some quick fun is a big part of how we play.  Coming home from or occasionally going to work, the gym, shopping, etc. my wife will stop to see her favorite couple nearby.  I likewise occasionally detour to see a wife from our closed group of married couples.  It usually lasts between half hour and and hour.  When someone calls us and wants to stop by our place, the other of us will watch our daughter.  We make it work and it is worth it for the sexual thrill.

[ConfusedHubby 118]

On 6/3/2023 at 7:08 PM, Numex said:

How close do your play partners live?  For us, especially Daniela, getting in some quick fun is a big part of how we play.  Coming home from or occasionally going to work, the gym, shopping, etc. my wife will stop to see her favorite couple nearby.  I likewise occasionally detour to see a wife from our closed group of married couples.  It usually lasts between half hour and and hour.  When someone calls us and wants to stop by our place, the other of us will watch our daughter.  We make it work and it is worth it for the sexual thrill.

-That sounds like a great system--the stuff of fantasy.  Most of our friends in the LS aren't very local and take a bit of advanced planning to see.  Where we are located has a swinging demographic that isn't really consistent we what we (more so the wife) are interested in. 

 

We do have two couples that are pretty close to us but between the 6 month break and the new hiatus we're on, communication has been pretty limited, unfortunately...

 

 

[Gab32421 25]

CH, anything changed since last post?

[ConfusedHubby 118]

Not really.  We were making decent progress towards reconnecting, being happier, getting our own sex life back to a level I found acceptable and had a couple of talks about resuming threesomes.   Ironically her interest seemed to be exclusively towards bringing another woman in rather then couples or single men.

 

This all came to an abrupt halt a few weeks back when her father had some health issues pop up (stroke) which we have had to take the primary role in handling.

 

She's stressed and irritable, sex is infrequent, our communication is down and the lifestyle isn't even on her radar...  in fact she just stopped responding to the few LS friends we still have and many of our vanilla ones as well.

 

I'm trying to be supportive through it all, but these aren't the most fun times.

[bbarnsworth 2,637]

Life's guaranteed to have ups and downs. Good on you for trying to be supportive. I hope her father recovers from the stroke well. I had a relative who had one, and lost all sense of touch in the left arm. Hopefully it's as minor as that.

[Fundamental Law 2,885]

We'll endorse that parental health issues are disruptive, and not uncommonly the eldest or nearest daughter bears the load. The following comments are meant to add perspective based on our own experiences (all parents now deceased) , not suggest courses. 

 

1. Serious health issues such as the aforementioned stroke are inevitable. It's always a matter of 'when'. Preparation does matter. For anyone with aging parents, the value of plans, knowing where paperwork is, and having a couple of legal documents available cannot be overstated. Generally, the documents include at a minimum advance directives, a durable power of attorney for healthcare decisions, and a general power of attorney to manage affairs when the parent is no longer capable. 

 

2. It's very valuable to have conversations with parents when they are well to disambiguate positions and have clear decisions when they decline. While the event itself is usually a surprise/shock, the response should be pre-planned. 

 

3. Acknowledge all of the stresses--time, money, and confrontation of fragility/mortality.  Expect libido to evaporate until the crisis is past. 

 

We'll add and even emphasize the importance of using these events to reconnect and reaffirm the importance of happiness and joy in life. The stresses will eventually resolve. How anyone emerges from that stress depends on how they feel they were successful and how they felt supported. 

 

Finally, sex is a celebration of life. Its time will return. Don't try to use it as a way to accelerate reflection and recovery from crisis, but be ready when both partners are ready. 

[lcmim 1,081]

On 9/4/2023 at 6:39 AM, ConfusedHubby said:

 

 

I'm trying to be supportive through it all, but these aren't the most fun times.

 

No they can be difficult.

 

BUT

 

Having been there on both sides of our families, my Mom and Connie's Dad, I can attest that sharing those times with each other were some of the most amazing bonding experiences of our marriage. The leeway  and support we each gave to the other in turn, lived out the reality of our oneness.

 

The two of you can come through this with a renewed sense of having each others backs that should make dealing with the original questions you posted easier to deal with.

[ConfusedHubby 118]

A conversation with a friend yesterday illuminated a troubling level of hypocrisy and deflecting/projecting.

 

This is the male half of the last LS couple we were with prior to the blow up giving rise to this story:

 

 X is my wife Y is his:

 

Friend: You do know I wore condom with her all the times I’ve been with X. I know you had all the times with Y. I know here at the house your condom broke, and maybe had been broken for awhile but we trusted you both, and it’s hard to tell but I noticed it and you switched out condoms. That said, X was open to me playing with her without a condom and hinted at she being ok with you playing without one with Y. So there is some disconnect.

Friend: She didn’t exactly say it…but what she said and how she said it told me so.

Friend: So that’s surprising that she is taking that stance with you and the condom thing.

Friend: X did too because she was like all kinds of saying cum inside of her. I had a condom, but her words told me what she liked. And then when I finished and we were watching you both, she was like omg it’s so hot him inside of her and if he cums inside of her. She I knew you guys were down. We just needed to have “the talk” lol    

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by ConfusedHubby