New Here and Overwhelmed

[Sunshine&Whiskey 15]

Hello there. I’m the male half of a 10 year married couple. My wife and I never fit into a particular label or group but we’ve had some experiences in the past. I’m at a very confused point in life and marriage. Some thoughts and help would be great. A little background…

 

We had some friends who we remained close to while we were engaged. They weren’t married but were in a committed relationship. We knew they invited other women into their life but always kept an arms length with our knowledge. One night after a concert and a lot of drinks we took the plunge with them with no foresight before it happened. Big deal for us, but much bigger for me as my wife, fiancée at the time had some history with other partners before me. We had a great time even though it was overwhelming after. We took part with them a few more times over some months. Our relationship with them didn’t fizzle but instead grew apart as there’s was on the outs. 
 

Years went by and eventually Brian, who was the male half of the couple, got serious with another woman and we had an experience with them. Just one as we were married and chalked it up to an anomaly. Brian and I remained good friends but he broke up with that one as well some months later. Nothing even close had happened after the last experience even though we got off to talking about the times we had.

 

About a year ago we hung out with Brian, his now new wife, and a guy I’d never met before. The night ran long again and we all ended up hooking up. Initially  I was jealous of the 5th wheel but I kept it inside. Almost the whole time he and my wife were together during this and were having pretty wild sex. I’m not exaggerating when I say he makes any guy I’ve seen in porn look small. It was a shock but i moved on and got over it. 
 

About a month ago Brian reached out after not talking for a while. He and his wife split and we met up for a beer. While talking he busted out with the I have to tell you something. He asked me if I remembered he and the others ride sharing from our house that night and picking up his car the following day. I said I did but had already left for a business trip before they came back the following day. He admitted that he and 5th wheel came back and had sex with my wife, that she initiated it, and was naked when they showed up. I was shocked. I was even more shocked that he provided cell video and pictures from it. Disappointed, I got up and walked out and haven’t spoken to him since. 
 

Here’s where the confusion kicks in. I haven’t confronted my wife. Instead I started getting off to the video I obtained from that day. So much so I reached out to 5th wheel and talked to him about he and his other half hanging out with us. His response was he’d like to but their relationship, which is relatively new, is outside of those bounds. He did offer to come by himself or even reach out to a girl he dated before her who would be down for it. I told him I’d think about it.

 

As for my wife I still haven’t talked to her about it. The last couple times we’ve had sex beyond a quickie we’ve incorporated some large toy play and I’ve hinted at her experience with him. It’s been crazy sex when that’s the case. 
 

I could use thoughts from vets in the game on if this is a slippery slope. It’s a lot of moving parts but I’m really stuck on watching this guy have sex with my wife again. It’d be even nicer to get pleasured while experiencing it. I sense some red flags but am very much considering it, much more than not.

[AdamGunn2 418]

Unfortunately, the majority of us on this site are not "vets in the game." We're veterans of swinging, not cheating. 

 

You need to have a long talk (or seventeen) with your wife about this. Tell her what you know, tell her how you found out, tell her how you feel about what you know.

Then let her talk about it, and listen hard to what she says. You have a long - and possibly unpleasant - road ahead of you.

 

Best of luck.

[hunterdonNJcpl 1,421]

I'll just say this: I have seen, on this forum and in life, men's jealousy ruin what could have been a beautiful, consensually non-monogamous, open relationship.

 

It seems you have a wife who likes to play. That is a blessing and you are a lucky man.  Good for you for keeping your mixed emotions in check.

 

In the Lifestyle, some one has to be the one to broach the topic of swinging/open relationships so it might as well be you.

 

Tell her you know about her fling, that it's OK, it actually turns you on, that you love her, don't want to lose her, and want to explore the swinger's lifestyle with her.

 

It will be a much better outcome than confronting her with hurt feelings. 

[bbarnsworth 2,652]

Oof. For me and my wife, trust is a huge thing.  Some relationships work with dicey trust, but it's not common in my experience.

 

Your wife cheated on you. Pure and simple. What's amazing is that she didn't have to. She could have had sex with these guys again, with your knowledge. If she wanted a solo threesome with them I'm guessing you might have agreed to that too. I don't get it. Why would she do this? What else has happened that you don't know about?

 

I don't disagree with hunterdonNJcpl; there IS a non-confrontational way through this.

 

The two of you have a LOT of talking and working on your relationship to do. I would also question the motivations of Brian and Mr. 5th Wheel. They went behind your back and fucked your wife without your knowledge. It's commendable Brian came clean. It seems Brian values your marriage more than your wife does. I hate to be cynical, but that's how it seems to me.  Would you really trust Mr. 5th Wheel to have sex with your wife again? This is a guy who deliberately stuck a knife in your back and doesn't respect your relationship.

 

Fantasies can be seriously powerful stuff. But, Mr. Big Dick 5th Wheel is not the only big dick in the world. My wife once had sex on and off for hours with a guy who had an enormous penis; foot long and nearly as thick as a beer bottle. I was there the whole time. She had a blast, and was in heaven. She's never gotten to have sex with any other guy that size or close again. That was ~10 years ago. I still fantasize about that afternoon to this day. But, I would never in a million years agree to him having sex with my wife again if I knew he'd disrespected our marriage like Mr. 5th Wheel did. What else will this asshole do? Forget Mr. 5th Wheel. Put him in the past.

 

There's red flags EVERYwhere here with this. You and your wife need to be monogamous until you get this sorted out.

 

You have every right to be angry, feel betrayed, disillusioned, whatever. But, I do agree with hunterdonNJcpl; do not approach your wife about this in a hostile way. Forgive her for it BEFORE you talk with her about it. Move forward without judgment. Move forward with an understanding of total commitment to each other, and rebuild trust. Maybe down the road you can open your marriage again. But, that time is not now.

 

Now; there's another aspect to this. Some guys enjoy their wives "cheating" on them in an open marriage. This is sort of the classic cuckold scenario. In the future, once you get your relationship back on solid ground, you might explore possibilities in this realm. There's a member of this forum that revels in this. His wife actively 'cheats' on him...with his consent...and it's his part of the play to catch her at it. That can be healthy. Another scenario; she dresses up beautifully, and provocatively. You go in separately to an upscale nightclub at an upscale hotel where you've booked a room. She sits at the bar and you are off somewhere you can see her, but not with her. You watch as a handsome man picks her up and leaves with her. She takes him back to your room and has sex with him. Maybe she sets up her phone to record it for you to watch later.  There's lots of potential scenarios you might really enjoy with her 'cheating'. But, I would never in a million years tolerate actual cheating, and neither should you.

 

 

[Sunshine&Whiskey 15]

Thank you for the responses so far. The time and detail put into them is appreciated.

 

The variation in opinion is reflective of my thoughts and emotions overall so maybe I’m not that crazy. 
 

I agree her actions were outside the bounds of our relationship. Putting it down into words felt very good. I reached out to both Brian and 5th wheel last night. Been quite a while since I’d spoken to him. He was still really contrite and acknowledged again he was responsible for what he did and didn’t blame anyone else. He swore up and down he never spoke to her after. I even gave him an out to get anything else out and he passed and said there was nothing else. 

 

I reached out to 5th wheel and pretty much closed the door for anything else in the future. I told him it would be best to move in a different direction. Unlike Brian he made some excuses and hammered home that she made it unavoidable. Same for him in saying they didn’t speak after. I had thoughts of potential trouble arising in the future and feel like a bit of a weight has been removed by closing it out. My desire to see it again clearly clouded my judgement. 
 

The wife and I had a romantic night last night. I fought the impulse to bring it up last night as it was late when we saw each other after our long day. Even though I held off, I felt pretty free to talk about our sex life and desires and such after clearing my plate with both guys earlier. I’m internally calm when I think about what happened, to the point where I’ve tried to rile myself up because I “should” be livid. I just can’t muster that up and I’m starting to understand that’s ok. 
 

With that being said I don’t desire her cheating. But, @bbarnsworth it’s interesting you bring up the points in the last half of your post. Maybe I read over it and missed it but I’ll look for the member you referenced. I’ll keep my mind open to any and everything at least. 
 

We actually have a date tonight. I may just speak with her about it tonight.

[GoldCoCouple 4,068]

Second most of the above...doing things together is swinging, doing them without your partner knowing is cheating. Swinging is never cheating and cheating is never swinging.

 

It sounds like you are okay with what has happened in the past, but she needs to know that from now on cheating is no longer allowed. This should be rather easy to do this in a non-confrontational way by letting her know that you now know what happened...and it's okay and that there's nothing to be forgiven or feel sorry about or anything, but in the future, if anything happens again, you need to know before it happens (and probably want to be there as well). Something along the lines of "Hey, it's not a big thing, but in the future, please either include me or let me know something is going to happen...just so you can be involved as well". To be successful swingers, you need love, trust and communication. If you don't have an abundance of all three, problems will eventually arise.

 

Maybe check into hotwives (is hotwiving even a word?) and/or stag and vixen since it sounds like what he was talking about. Good luck and let us know how things progress.

[Fundamental Law 2,903]

A bit of perspective. 

 

1. Reflect on your wife and your relationship with her. Do you love her with all your heart and soul, and is your relationship "'til death do you part?"  It seems like it is, you need to be sure in your own mind that it is. 

 

2. Reflect on the rough patches in your relationship. Every relationship has had rough patches. What got you through them? In most cases, it is finding the courage to communicate even while feeling vulnerable. Has this been true for you? 

 

3. If (1) and (2) are true, then perhaps the next step is to calmly let her know what you know, that you continue to love her and want to talk about how you feel. It's okay to fret about her lack of transparency, and it's also okay that to tell her that you are excited about ethical non-monogamy, however you define it. 

 

One more bit of perspective. Life's journey can be unpredictable, the destination is not. With every passing day it becomes more important to figure out what happiness means to you--individually and as a couple--and to find that happiness. No one benefits from anxiety and uncertainty--both make days less enjoyable and both likely shorten lives. Give yourself the gifts of vulnerability and transparency and honesty. 

[Sunshine&Whiskey 15]

On 2/9/2024 at 4:55 PM, Fundamental Law said:

A bit of perspective. 

 

1. Reflect on your wife and your relationship with her. Do you love her with all your heart and soul, and is your relationship "'til death do you part?"  It seems like it is, you need to be sure in your own mind that it is. 

 

2. Reflect on the rough patches in your relationship. Every relationship has had rough patches. What got you through them? In most cases, it is finding the courage to communicate even while feeling vulnerable. Has this been true for you? 

 

3. If (1) and (2) are true, then perhaps the next step is to calmly let her know what you know, that you continue to love her and want to talk about how you feel. It's okay to fret about her lack of transparency, and it's also okay that to tell her that you are excited about ethical non-monogamy, however you define it. 

 

One more bit of perspective. Life's journey can be unpredictable, the destination is not. With every passing day it becomes more important to figure out what happiness means to you--individually and as a couple--and to find that happiness. No one benefits from anxiety and uncertainty--both make days less enjoyable and both likely shorten lives. Give yourself the gifts of vulnerability and transparency and honesty. 

1 is a definite yes, 2 is as well as far as the reflection and communication in good and bad.

 

3 was difficult, as was evidenced Friday when I backed out of speaking to her about it. Fortunately I mustered the confidence and strength to talk to her last night. We talked for roughly 4 hours.

 

I explained I was not angry, but instead disappointed in what happened, but more so in the fact of how I found out. She broke down for a bit and for lack of better terminology just took what I was saying. I told her I would have been open to her doing what she did if she would have brought it up. I asked her if there were other times and she said there was not. Unlike Brian and 5th wheel’s rendition, she was adamant they came on to her. She volunteered it was no excuse but wanted to set the record straight.

 

I asked her what she wanted and felt as far as our sex lives went. She gave a somewhat bloated explanation but one I appreciated nonetheless. She acknowledged she likes the lifestyle but said she is apprehensive out of not wanting it to consume our lives. She commented a lot about not wanting me to think she’s “crazy”, those are her words. But that her preference was to have steady people to play with but that she enjoyed being the female center of attention. The overwhelming majority of our limited experience is with another couple. We’ve had a couple of times where it was just myself and another couple guys and she admitted that would be her preference. She admitted she was reluctant to relay the message for fear of my response. We both finished the conversation with acknowledging the need for us to speak without the fear of being shut down. We reiterated just how much we love each other and how I cast no judgement on her desires to have multiple male partners at once. She really opened up after that and relayed some extremely kinky stuff that she both fantasized about and had experienced prior to our relationship. 

[bbarnsworth 2,652]

Sunshine&Whiskey, WONDERFUL conversation!

 

There is a great deal of power in talking with someone you love without judgment, without joking sarcasm, without what in today's world we call "microaggressions". It sends the message that it's safe, it's receptive, and welcome and one can share their deepest fears, their deepest fantasies, their deepest insecurities, and their deepest heart. I think you're finding that with your wife.

 

Our society applauds men that sleep around, and denigrates women for the same behavior. It can be difficult for a woman to tell her man that she loves sex, and wants it from several men. It's like admitting she's a slut, with all the negative connotations of it. I suspect this is where your wife is coming from. It sounds like you have been very supportive and receptive to her wants and desires, and now they are coming out more fully, more completely to you. This is really great! Your wife isn't a slut. She's a sexual creature who wants to explore, wants to experience, and wants to fulfill her fantasies (probably many times over). That makes her...her. It doesn't make her wrong, bad, a slut, or anything else negative.

 

If you're happy with MFMs and MFMores with her being the center of attention of two, three, or more men, then awesome! It's really a wonderful experience. There are some here that prefer that either both get to play or neither gets to play. I've never been a fan of that idea. For me, I greatly enjoy having sex with other women. But if I absolutely had to choose sex with women other than my wife or getting to watch another man have sex with my wife and watching her enjoy him giving her an orgasm and him cumming inside her? I love both, but I'd choose the latter. What's important though is what works for you and your wife.

 

You're on a journey. You just took some very important steps. Make sure the trust is back to where it needs to be. If you move forward with having your marriage open, I would move slowly for a bit. Definitely don't include 5th Wheel (glad you told him to get lost). I don't know that I would include Brian in the future. Just not certain. There are other single guys out there without such complications. I applaud Brian's willingness to come forward, but I would be cautious in that he was willing to have sex with your wife behind your back. It's great he was wracked with guilt, not so great the guilt didn't stop him from doing it in the first place!

[Numex 2,459]

On 2/8/2024 at 3:31 PM, hunterdonNJcpl said:

It seems you have a wife who likes to play. That is a blessing and you are a lucky man.  Good for you for keeping your mixed emotions in check.

 

...

 

Tell her you know about her fling, that it's OK, it actually turns you on, that you love her, don't want to lose her, and want to explore the swinger's lifestyle with her.

Right on.  Excellent advice.

[Numex 2,459]

On 2/9/2024 at 9:37 AM, Sunshine&Whiskey said:

I’m internally calm when I think about what happened, to the point where I’ve tried to rile myself up because I “should” be livid. I just can’t muster that up and I’m starting to understand that’s ok. 

A lesson in the lifestyle and life generally is not to feel compelled to react the way other people think you should.  Some people think that my ex-wife and I should be angry with each other, we're not and they are puzzled.  It seems that you and your wife actually align on the lifestyle and what you both enjoy - it only needs some honesty.  Your wife is hiding what she did because she thinks that you're supposed to be angry when your not.  Be the better person and approach her with understanding, we all have our faults and fears.  It seems to me if you two straighten this out you have a wonderful journey ahead of you.  Good luck.

[Sunshine&Whiskey 15]

On 2/11/2024 at 11:41 AM, bbarnsworth said:

Sunshine&Whiskey, WONDERFUL conversation!

 

There is a great deal of power in talking with someone you love without judgment, without joking sarcasm, without what in today's world we call "microaggressions". It sends the message that it's safe, it's receptive, and welcome and one can share their deepest fears, their deepest fantasies, their deepest insecurities, and their deepest heart. I think you're finding that with your wife.

 

Our society applauds men that sleep around, and denigrates women for the same behavior. It can be difficult for a woman to tell her man that she loves sex, and wants it from several men. It's like admitting she's a slut, with all the negative connotations of it. I suspect this is where your wife is coming from. It sounds like you have been very supportive and receptive to her wants and desires, and now they are coming out more fully, more completely to you. This is really great! Your wife isn't a slut. She's a sexual creature who wants to explore, wants to experience, and wants to fulfill her fantasies (probably many times over). That makes her...her. It doesn't make her wrong, bad, a slut, or anything else negative.

 

If you're happy with MFMs and MFMores with her being the center of attention of two, three, or more men, then awesome! It's really a wonderful experience. There are some here that prefer that either both get to play or neither gets to play. I've never been a fan of that idea. For me, I greatly enjoy having sex with other women. But if I absolutely had to choose sex with women other than my wife or getting to watch another man have sex with my wife and watching her enjoy him giving her an orgasm and him cumming inside her? I love both, but I'd choose the latter. What's important though is what works for you and your wife.

 

You're on a journey. You just took some very important steps. Make sure the trust is back to where it needs to be. If you move forward with having your marriage open, I would move slowly for a bit. Definitely don't include 5th Wheel (glad you told him to get lost). I don't know that I would include Brian in the future. Just not certain. There are other single guys out there without such complications. I applaud Brian's willingness to come forward, but I would be cautious in that he was willing to have sex with your wife behind your back. It's great he was wracked with guilt, not so great the guilt didn't stop him from doing it in the first place!

Completely agree. We’ve talked and with some great one on one advice from @Fundamental Law we talked even more. We easily spent a half a day the last two days opening up and communicating at a level we didn’t understand was required or that we were even capable of. It’s amazing how we all seem to know everything about everyone else, but 99% of us leave sex in a relationship and discussions about it as a taboo we don’t go near. I’m very confident when I say the things my wife told me were not only enlightening but very stimulating. A wrong is wrong, but there’s some more to it I just won’t get into a publicly visible forum.

 

And I totally agree about the double standard with men and women. One is applauded while the other is maligned. We all carry burdens. But some of those burdens are self made while others are thrust upon us. She’s definitely made some choices based on prior circumstances she’s found herself in.

 

Kicking Brian to the curb was not easy. I’ve known him for longer than I’ve known my wife. Past experiences for my wife prior to meeting me aside, this and specifically he was a bit of a guiding light for us. Add the friendship to him being the first guy I watched have sex with my wife makes it difficult in a way. The way it came together was extremely organic which is in large part the reason why everything worked, albeit rarely, from the start those many years ago. My wife laid more honesty at the table about the incident and her past than I could have ever imagined. I buy her story over his as far as how it went down. Especially considering the inconsistencies between his and 5th wheel’s. 

[Anon321 524]

My opinion will not be popular here but I think you should take a small break from the swinging scene with your wife until you've fully digested this.  You're coming off of a couple of swinging experiences and you're getting off to a video of your wife fucking other guys which could be clouding your judgement of what you want or how you really feel.  I am not saying you should get angry or kill the idea of swinging but I think you probably still have some mixed emotions.  Did you tell your wife that you have these videos and pictures of her and that you've been getting off to them?

 

This reminds me of something similar that happened with me and my GF way back early on in our relationship.  There are mixed feelings where you get turned on and get off to what happened but at the same time feel betrayed or upset.  Sometimes it's hard to sort those feelings out and you have to really focus on why you're feeling these different emotions and what you ultimately want and desire.  This will help you set some of the guidelines when you go back into the swinging scene again.