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This could go on forever. In Oklahoma, there is a song with the lyrics "this land is my land, this land is your land". Swinging is who you are and what you make of it. We all have our wants and preferences. Can't we all get along, even if we don't agree with the next guy? We wish there were Vegas style parties in this area. 35% single guys, that would be great. We are picky, she want's to have plenty to choose from. We have been fortunate in that most guys are polite. (Maybe something in our body language helps with that.) Am I afraid that you will please her better than I? Hardly! I want her to shake thru a dozen Os with you. Because I will be there to experience it with her. Show her something new? Great, because she and I will both benefit from it later. So, single guy, come introduce yourself. But remember, polite and charming always gets you farther, in everyday life and in swinging. Ha! I think I addressed everything in this thread!

With us it wasn't swinging per say that help us, but our trip to The Grove last year. I've always been heavy and self conscious about it. It never was a major issue for me, but I was ashamed of how I looked at times. After spending the whole weekend running around nude, and having fun together I was amazed. I couldn't believe how nice people were and how well we were treated. It made me realize people will accept me for more than my looks. My wife on the other hand was even more affected. She was always shy, self conscious, really low self esteem, and very low confidence. After that weekend she has done a complete 180 and hit the gas. It's like she's a whole new person. She's now outspoken, she'll go right up to people and talk to them, she tries new things, and has made more friends. I love the change in her. I'm proud of her for coming out of her shell. Like I said ours wasn't so much swinging, we did do a little soft-swinging together with another couple, it was the acceptance we had in general.

Since I’m kind of being attacked from all sides, I think that after this last post I’m going to do my best to just avoid speaking anymore. What began as a search for advice has become a bunch of people chastising me for being something that I honestly am not. Yeah, I hit him. And things are cool. I just talked to him a couple of hours ago, and he assured me that everything was fine. If there really isn’t another guy who has ever seen a friend of theirs hurt another friends feelings and given him a punch and a ‘what the hell, dude?’ as a way of showing said friend the error of their ways, then there is a much bigger generational gap than I thought. I don’t go around punching everyone who has ever hurt my girlfriend’s feelings. I don’t think I’d hit any other swinger on the off chance I ended up in that situation again. The fact is that at that particular moment, it was acceptable, and he thinks so too. I’m not sorry. As for them being in love and me being such a dick for ruining what precious little time they had… there’s more to the story than you know. They had only recently gotten back together after a bad breakup involving her cheating on him. I’m not going into any more detail because it’s not really relevant anyway, but it’s sufficient to say that their relationship isn’t nearly as romantic or ideal as many people seem to think. And despite all this, just to clear up a fact that I think might have been lost in the rat race to condemn me: I never once hassled him in ANY way for being so outspokenly in love with his girlfriend. Not even jokingly. But I have mentioned before that he had left the room at one point and his own girlfriend complained that she was getting sick of him being in love with him in the same way that a 2nd grader might profess love for his teacher. And for the record, my own sister is a lesbian, and I love her regardless. Don’t try and make me out to be prejudiced towards homosexuals when they themselves use the term ‘gay’ in the exact same manner that I have. The fact is that this isn’t going to stop me from swinging because I honestly don’t think that I’m wrong here, and whether you want to believe me or not, I’ve never had a problem admitting when I’m wrong. Maybe it’s the medium in which this information is being delivered, but the fact is that no one who can really, honestly say that they know what kind of person I am. Instead, I am made out to be the biggest asshole imaginable. And just as a note to miss Safire, my girlfriend did nothing more in this whole predicament than cry. If you intend on making me anathema to the entire forum, then I beseech you to at least do her the courtesy of not lumping her into the same category as me, whether I’m an asshole or not. She’s a much better person than I think I could ever be. On final notes, I’m not going to defend my friendship with this guy, nor am I going to admit being in the wrong, nor apologize for my actions. I’d like to note that the whole idea of separate rooms was instated with the intention of helping to quell his nerves. I appreciate the help that I DID receive from some people on this board, and while I disagree with many, I respect your opinions. I’d also like to that ncmd_couple for being the one person I can note who gave me even the slightest benefit of a doubt. Their little bit of defense is appreciated more than they could possibly imagine. Thanks for your time. -Ave Satanas

Ok!! As I see it being a single male! i prefer the group scene more then a 1 on 1 scene, the reason behind my choice in swinging, I enjoy, but am not in a position to commit.most of all, that's where my fetish is, the 3some, and swinging being an expressive way to open up one's sexual horizon, in a fun and loving environment. That being said. would sure fire be the reason why I am single at the moment. I mean why not have fun, why not, enjoy the company of a couple, who wishes me to be part and parcel of their bedroom (pardon the pun). Yes, i know most are in it for a cheap thrill, or just plain out their to get an easy screw. But, most are out their because that's our way of fulfilling that need that doesn't come from a 1 on 1 scenario.

This is a war that is going to go on until the last human walks the face of the earth. The single men against some couples. Not all, some. Years ago everyone was welcome as swingers. Then the "lifestyle" came along and it became the world of couples against singles. Truth be told, the oldest and busiest clubs in the country allow single men and is not because they get a greater number of single men or that the single men are the ones paying all the bills even though single men are always charged more. I have been involved in one of those clubs for over ten years. 65% couples, 30% single men and 5% single women. More couples come there to play with single men then they do single women. Another fact, there has been more couples banned from the club in the 25 years it has been there then single men. Many couples feel they are the lifestyle, that their way is the only way and they cause much more problems then the singles do. Most of the singles also seem to have much more respect for people in general then couples show towards singles. There are couples that say "single men bring nothing to the party." That is not totally a true statement. They may not bring anything to the party for a couple that does not want to party with a single man but they bring a lot to the party for those that do want to party with them. Back in the Swinger Days before the "lifestyle" came along most of the people at the parties where singles. Both women and men. Couples came into the scene later. Anyone remember "Swinging singles" back in the 60's and 70's? Ok, some of us do. The ones of us that are more experienced. (older) and partied as Swingers back then. Honestly, there is no need for this war or harsh words from either side. There are couples that don't want to party with single men, there are couples that don't want to party with couples and couples that don't want to party with single women. None if it is wrong! This lifestyle has become what you want it to be for you but that does not make anyone, single or couple less valuable in the "lifestyle" or on this earth. There are soft-swingers, hardcore swingers, voyeurs, exhibitions all in todays lifestyle. They all serve a purpose to someone in the lifestyle. What they do may or may not be your way of being in the lifestyle but that does not make it wrong. It also means that all sides should have the respect for the others that they desire for their self. Singles, if a profile says they don't want singles, stay away. Couples, just because someone is single, male or female does not make them any less part of this lifestyle than you are. There are no set in stone rules here and last I heard no one in the Lifestyle was elected president and put in charge. This is supposed to be fun but it seems that way to many people want to make life, and the lifestyle to damn hard with all their rules and rudeness just because it is not the way they want to live their life. Society feels we are all a bunch of misfit freaks that should be locked up so there is no need for the ones of us that do live and enjoy this lifestyle to be taking pot shots at each other over differences in our choices. You all have chosen a different lifestyle or you would not be here. There are also many differences and choices within this lifestyle. You may not want to be involved in all of them but that does not mean others are wrong and you are right if live this lifestyle in a different manner. As was said, Can't ya all just get along!

Dude, the primary reason that he was even there was to see his long-distance girlfriend. They only had a little time. They live very far apart, and I'm guessing they spend very little time together....right? Couples in long-distance relationships, missing each other and obviously in love, aren't going to be primarily looking for outside hook-ups in their brief time together. In fact, due to their circumstances, I'm surprised they spent that much time with another couple, at all. Most couples in that situation would be more in "honeymoon" mode, looking to be alone together. You seem to have little tolerance for what you call "chick flick gay love", but babe, these people are madly in love and spend precious little time together. Yeah, they shouldn't have been wishy-washy with you about whether swapping was going to happen or not, but it sounds like you could have picked up the cues (their love, the long distance thing, the brief time to see each other), and let it go.

In a recent post regarding New Swingers on our blog we wrote: "If you have a healthy happy marriage, then hang on for the most exhilarating, sexual liberating, marriage intensifying, communication inducing ride of a lifetime." We stand by it. Our marriage both inside and outside is better since entering the lifestyle, and it was pretty damn great to begin with!

When you think about what has been beat into ours heads since childhood, the secrecy and unacceptance in society isn't all that hard to understand and is understandable. As young boys, we are taught either directly or indirectly that men don't play with men, period. That a man is less of a man who does. By letting another man have control (sex) with you, you submit to him and being dominated during sex is against our nature. You are somehow less manly. Only girly or less manly men want to have sex with other men. These are the things that are ingrained in us (men and women). I don't think women are or were subjected to this nearly as much and hence the acceptance of female bi play. I believe that if this sigma was somehow eliminated, you would see a whole lot more male bi acceptance, and a whole lot more male bi play. I don't see that happening. Of course there many other reasons why things are the way they are but I believe this to be the root of it even though most would not admit it. To some this may seem over simplified and obvious but it hasn't been mentioned. I don't believe bi or gay men are less manly. But there was a time I did and male on male play still makes me uncomfortable for reasons I can't fully explain other than it's tough to erase years of what you have been exposed to.

I agree with you. What we choose to do and what we choose to keep private are very personal choices. And since most swingers do choose to keep their choices personal, few of us go to vanilla boards and try to convince people that swinging should be universally approved; that anyone who does not accept swinging has a double standard (vanillas have sex, after all) or are hypocrites. I choose to keep my swinging a secret from many people - and as such, I am not looking for a wider acceptance. If I did want swinging to be better accepted, it would be my responsibility to make that happen. I would not rely on vanillas to do it for me... So, while I appreciate the point you are making, I am not sure that I see the parallel.

Well the wife is bi. She knew it was a fantasy of mines to see her with another woman. She tried it, liked it, looks forward to it. It was my turn. I tried it, had a good time. Not because of the act, but because of the wife's reaction to seeing it. She came from just watching. I could live without doing it again. But seeing her completely lose control of herself is more than enough reason for me to keep doing it. The experience wasn't all that bad either.

Sorry, but I often find in threads that become combative the statement "why did you even open the thread if your not interested" To this I have to say. BECAUSE.....I have on several occations passed over a thread that did not seem at all interesting to me. Then I go back to the main page and oh look it says there is a thread that I missed in "The Cafe" for example, so I go back and it turns out to be the one I don't care to read about. In order to get ride of that little posty note I have to open the thread and scroll down to the end. Some times I read for interests sake and find out that I was wrong in my assumption, you know the whole judging a book by its cover thing. or I find a comment that I feel I need to respond to. What ever my reason, it is my reason alone and because I put it out there to begin with, it is for me to deal with what ever comment comes back to me. If you don't like the comments that are being made, don't make comments in the beginning. Seems like a simple solution to this problem of people having different likes and dislikes. Or perhaps, everyone with a comment that is not COMMPLETLY 100% politicaly correct please keep said comments to your rotten little selves. Those of us with glass jaws don't appreciate them. Now I have been bitcher then I normally am, and I am sure to get both kudos and finger wagging, but as a poster on this board I am going to have to deal with what comes my way whether I like it or not. By the way, just to save time for those of you who chose to finger wag at me. If you do not want me to express my feelings, don't bother responding to me. I appreciate other peoples point of view whether it works with mine or not. I may not like the way it is stated, but we are all different in our mannerisms. As a friend once said to me. I have sexy and volupuous (?) all the time. Swinging for me gives me cute and pixy like every now and then. Isn't that what makes us so unique, our ability to accept our differences and even celebrate them like no vanilla group can. So stop squabbling over who said what and why they need to be in this or that thread. Your contriverical(again with the spelling thing)friend, Prettylady:kissface: What were we talking about, I am guessing either male sexual preferences or something about wieght. Ya, those two topics usually lose thier focus after post number 2

1) Re-read the title of the thread. Then read it again. Then read the OP. Nowhere does it direct itself to bi guys. The title asks GUYS what would get them interested in BI play. It does not ask what kind of play BI-GUYS like. It's implied in the body of the posting, but the title certainly seems to be asking what would get a straight guy interested in bi-play. 2) I'm bi. That doesn't mean everybody or anybody else is. Don't they have the right to be the way they are? How can I expect straight people to respect the way I am if I don't respect they way they are? I dislike pushy or presumptive (the only reason you don't like it is because you haven't tried it) bi people *exactly* as much as I dislike homophobes. I think straight people know they are straight and are not in need of an awakening, conversion or anything else. Bi people know they are bi, but sometimes they choose not to reveal it. Here is much more fodder for you to mis-read Mr. FC4L

I don't know this person nor do I personally agree with how they went about things but it seems like everyone has started attacking him on the fact of his age and his mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes especially being new in the lifestyle. I find it hard to believe that everyone of you who is so mightily casting those first stones didn't at one point, especially in the beginning, yourselves have some problems/ predicaments/ something out of the ordinary happen. You might not agree with what happened but theres definitely no need to attack as most of you have been doing. He has also been taking everyones criticism very well might I add. Better then most people "His age" would do. Even if everything you all have been saying is true there is such a thing as constructive criticism. If you don't have something nice to say then keep it to yourself. As for how things went down Mr Ave Satanas. No I don't really agree with how you handled things and the punch being unnecessary ( its never ever good to handle things physically Like that) . Next time just tell them things aren't working out and ask them to leave. If you have to drive them the next morning go and pick them up. Don't react heat of the moment. thats when things you will regret will happen. It sounds like from your last comment that they don't have the best relationship which is usually big drama in this lifestyle so you might just avoid them all together and make better choices next time. Good luck and hope you have better times in the future.

I for one found that story pretty damn entertaining! At any rate, my advice is: Take things slow and easy, and try not to have expectations at all. The more expectations you have, the more disappointment you're setting yourself up for (and I speak from experience there). Rejection is also something you're going to have to handle from time to time, so keep that in mind. Violence is no big deal to me (actually I think the whole world should go back to seeing it as no big deal ), and actually a good thing in more than a few circumstances, but in a swinging situation? Whew. No way. I know your situation was unique here, so I won't chastise you. Do be aware, though, that most swinging couples will avoid that sort of thing like the plague (fun and drama don't mix for most people), and that what most people are after is either a. a very light-hearted playful sexual encounter, or b. a very erotic sexual encounter.

Actually, mentioning that I go by that name was more of an introduction than anything else, it wasn't really relevant to the thread. But if you're curious about the name itself, it is a term used in a religion I practice. I don't name it too much because doing so is akin to trolling anyone who is Christian, and I don't want to alienate myself or anyone else. Suffice it to say that it is written in my bible that practitioners of my religion are welcome to engage in all manner of sexual activity, be it heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual, asexual, or polysexual (which I know isn't a word but should be, because it describes swingers pretty well). I should also take this moment to address something I had missed, which was LikeMinds mentioning that in some of my older posts I had described myself as a jealous, temperamental, and so on. I assure you that this has changed pretty dramatically for the most part. Did I mention that we engaged in MMF activities prior to this current situation that went pretty well. The only reason those stopped is we felt that we were hindering the third party from ever getting a steady girlfriend, and chose to stop for his benefit. I've actually gotten over jealousy completely. The whole protectiveness and temper thing... Look guys, I know I shouldn't have hit him. There were better things to do. I made a bad decision because I was seeing my girlfriend cry, and thankfully got out of it better than I could have. But there are a couple of issues I have, because there seems to be a lot of focus on my maturity because I hit a guy. First, I wouldn't have hit any guy in that situation, but circumstances were different here. I'm still great friends with this guy, I can't stress that enough, and I'm not going to hit him if the exact same thing happens again. Maybe the hitting thing comes with youth and being stupid kids, but I never had any intention of beating him to death or anything. It was a frustration thing, a stupid thing to do, but I refuse to believe that I'm the only guy on Swingers Board who's given another guy a punch in the noggin. I'm having an issue, because while the anonymity here means that's I can safely ask for good advice from everyone, it also ensures that none of you TRULY know me, and I think that it kind of skews your opinion about me and my behavior due to this situation. Honestly, I don't hit dudes every day. I actually spend a lot of time breaking up fights (I work at a middle school), and if it had been any one of you I was swinging with in this situation, I can promise I wouldn't have hit you. It was a friendship thing. I've just now become paranoid that I'm persona non grata because of what I did, and the whole fact that an hour later we were playing video games and everything was cool is being ignored. I want to made sure I'm not thought of too badly.

So I had expected to be told that I shouldn't have hit the guy, that it was bad behavior, immature, etc. I agree there were better paths I could have taken. But at the time, there was no straight 'no' that MEANT 'no', only a shrug off after being put under the assumption that a foursome is exactly what we were there for. And like I mentioned, on my end things were heading that way. I suppose deep down I knew that this guy and I were (and still are!) good enough friends that the hit wouldn't be a huge problem. I suppose that might be because we're younger and will hit one another half the time just for the hell of it. And anyone who knows hockey guys knows that fighting isn't a HUGE thing for us. In the end, the guy later offered to take another hit, saying he himself felt like he had it coming. And I should probably mention to everyone that regardless of what I did that night, odds are that I would never, NEVER hit a member of another swinging party just because they shot down my girlfriend. Had it been someone else, the circumstances would have been different. But as for appearing in good taste, mature, etc... I did not care, and am not sorry. Maybe I'm just stubborn like that. But where maturity might be my problem, some of those who have pointed this out might want to look at ageism as THEIR problem. Sure, bad taste is never good. But neither is a condescending attitude... However, I respect everyone's opinion and appreciate the feedback I've gotten thus far. Especially since it seems like most everyone read the damn thing. That deserves a thank you in itself. So to clear up some individual facts: - we never MADE swingers of friends. From what we had been led to believe, they were swingers already. As for swinging with friends and all that... Eh, it's what we do and I don't think we're changing that. - When we got a straight NO that meant NO, we were actually much better. That's when we went back and just enjoyed sex with one another and were honestly not angry. Everything angry happened before they gave us a straight no. - We don't actually intend to steal this guys girlfriend away, that was actually a joke. I respect the hell out of this guy and would do a lot for him. And with that I've got to go pick up the lady from work. Thanks for the feedback, the cast list (God that was funny. I could use more of that. Every guy likes getting compared to Brad Pitt), and the Fight Club reference. Can't wait for more. I swear I'm more mature than you might be taking me for.

Humans can be jerks. It does not take being a single guy to be a jerk, there are many single women and couples that are also jerks. It is a people thing. Some people know how to treat others and many people do not. There are many couples that do not want to party with single guys. Simple, guys, stay away from those couples. There are also couples that love to party with single guys, guys, use some class and manners and contact those people. We have found in hosting at a very busy club that over the long period we have had more trouble with single women and couples then we have had with the single men. Most people would think it would be the other way around but people think that because many couples and others will be happy to talk about "single guys" being an ass. Very seldom do we see a thread here about couples or single women being a problem even though the numbers prove out over time they are the problem. They seem to lack in manners more times then single men do. What a single women does and gets away with a single man will be nailed to a cross for doing the same thing. Your thread is one that is brought up many, many times in these forums. You will get some answer here but you might want to just do a search and see the 100's of answers to this same question that have been made over the years. Never let pixels on the Internet guide you in your quest for having fun in this lifestyle. Stick by your principles and manners and have fun.

Yes there are - which is why I am so surprised by your misuse of the word. Your point has nothing to do with hypocrisy - which was my point... Not to be cheeky, of course One such definition would be: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion or a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings. When you accuse people of hypocrisy, it is probably best if you understand the word. This is one of those words that gets tossed around for effect, but is often done so poorly, showing the user to be weak in their command of vocabulary. And the misuse of language for attempted shock value is a pet peeve of mine. It may SEEM that you are making a strong point with a strong word, but if you do not use the word correctly, it loses its punch. Nothing that you said above evidences hypocrisy. In fact, by definition, the people who commonly discuss these issues have been remarkably consistent in their views. No one has claimed that their viewpoint is "right" (false appearance of virtue*) just that they are entitled to their opinion. A hypocrite would be one who stated that they were against male bisexuality, but then practiced it themselves despite their words to the contrary. So - can we please drop the false accusation of hypocrisy? It does not advance the discussion. *This might be a loose example, since it may be misplaced virtue, but not actually false virtue.

Oh crap... I'm a poster boy I would have to say that the only thing that might make me interested is if I were looked in solitary confinement for the rest of my life and could learn to blow myself... But - I doubt I'd push it. I already give some wicked hand jobs to myself