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Right off I'll acknowledge my "qualifications" for addressing this topic are extremely suspect. I'm a 51-y.o. single male who's never been married (although I had several short/medium relationships and one long-term relationship. Honest!). No kids. And no sperm-donation centers will be calling me either...I found out about that too late to profit from it. I own a 1996 four-door Honda Accord. It IS a stick, not an automatic; I learned stick 30+ years ago and I'm not changing...for a while. (Plus, it's helpful to know how to drive a manual transmission when traveling outside of the U.S. Renting an automatic transmission car outside of North America, I've found, can be very expensive, since manuals seemed to be the choice in the rest of the world. That could have changed by now. Driving a stick in France, Italy, and the rest of the European continent isn't so bad (although I'd love to try the Autobahn), but really, you haven't lived until you've driven a stick -- on the left side of the road, of course, on the right side of the car -- in England, Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand. Fun! (SCARY, occasionally...not even counting the occasional kangaroo or yobbo.)) I have no fear of firearms but only have handled BB guns, .22s, and whatever shotguns we used during skeet-shooting during our company "retreats." I'm sort of stuck around an 80% hit-rate with the .22s (used them in summer biathlons: run a mile, shoot five targets prone, run a mile, shoot five targets standing, run a mile, collapse) and the skeet-shooting (only five opportunities at that, though). Maybe I should get a little more practice. I have not hunted, but I've fished. I know how to gut, clean, fillet, and cook fish. And for those of you who are coastal fishermen, I can also clean and prepare a pretty decent skate wing. (Had enough of them chew on hooks when I was just trying to catch some Virginia Spots or flounder, so I decided to learn why European fish companies buy the skates caught by US trawlers. The reason is that skate is pretty tasty.) Oh, and I have a dick. And balls. One ball's rather small, though. So, anyway, am I manly enough? Didn't think so. Well, regardless, I want to make a point, or get back to a point that I might have made if I actually posted what I was thinking awhile ago: In the vanilla bar/pick-up/dating/hooking-up scene the male is usually the aggressor. Yes, lots of women make themselves available in clubs, bars, and other venues, but the male is usually the pursuer. In the lifestyle, the male (single or coupled) has to rein-in his aggressiveness (his sexuality) to some extent. Why? I think because there might be a more level sexual playing field in the lifestyle. Whereas the vanilla world usually works on the men being expected to be more assertive/aggressive ("...because that's the way men are..."), in the lifestyle the situation is closer (it might not be equal, but it's closer) to parity. Women in the lifestyle tend to be more confident in their sexuality, so they can be more confident, and be accepted in that role, in being the "aggressor" in a sexual context. So, what I'm trying to say with the Psych 101 stuff is that the best strategy for getting laid in the vanilla world (most Western culture) is not necessarily the best way to get laid in the "lifestyle." Men are usually perceived as the sexual aggressors in Vanilla World, but in SwingWorld women have a certain level of assertiveness/aggressiveness that is recognized as being equal to, or almost equal to, the testosterone set. In the lifestyle, the WOMAN can ask the MAN to dance...she doesn't have to wait for Sadie Hawkins' Day. Maybe this slow shift to sexual equality is what the Original Poster is getting at; not necessarily that some men are being feminized, but that the lifestyle makes men realize that all men and women are sexual...and that's that way it should be, a level playing field that everyone can enjoy. Thrax /Btw, my bowling average is 182. Does that sound masculine? //I can swim a mile in open water in 30 minutes, can you do that? ///I shared a hospital room with Jamie Lee Curtis...sort of ////Oh...never mind /////Me mum said, "If'n you don't make yer posts useful, at least make 'em enjoyable."

If you're not finding what you want, then I suggest you create your own group. That's what we did and it works very well. After reading your profile, this seems like it would be a good fit for you. Either join a group already formed and get to know them or form your own. We had been in the lifestyle for just a few months when we formed our own house party group. Even if you don't want people coming to your house, you can still meet up at other places, and go to an on-premise club as a group. Another thought is to join multiple sites, if you haven't already. Just a suggestion. Mrs. D

JandCMI28, Just my first impressions after reading your post(s) and gazing at your SLS profile. I offer constructive critism, absolutely from my layman experience...I be no professional critic by any means Your SLS profile is all pretty specific, outlined, refined and defined, dot to dot to dot to....... I think you may be looking for to much to fast. Lighten up a little, I have to say that to me yor SLS profile kinda sounds like you have a "Chip on your Shoulder". In the first paragraph...two references to "Bullshit" drama, games, stringing along.... I don't think that's a good way to start.....and not just the writing part, but the approach is wrong....especially in person. How about "We are a no drama kind of couple, honest, straight forward, we don't play games and won't string you along". So Chill bro ......your SLS profile says no drama.....but I read and see bunches of drama in your SLS writing.....and also in this thread. In your second post you talk about not being into going to clubs and drinking beers all night and dancing, etc.... but other people are, maybe they go there to meet for sex, maybe they go there for the fun of it....maybe for both....but maybe that's where you gotta be to find what your looking for. I just offer a suggestion for you to relax a little. I think your anticipation is getting the best of you. I can tell your an intelligent person, I think your allowing the logic of this get in the way of your reasoning.... OK, but you didn't ask for feedback on your profile and writing, etc.... I just thought I could help. The lifestyle can be tough sometimes.....I hear what your saying, I know where your coming from.....but you might have to change if you want it to change.

I went ahead and perved your SLS profile too (very good profile by the way), and the only thing I can see is that what you are looking for is very specific and well laid out, but I will have to admit, I have met very few folks that meet all of your requirements. Keep in mind that the less flexible you are in what you are seeking, the more flexible those you seek would have to be. The reason for that is, while I have meet a lot of swingers, I have met very few that see swinging the same way, or have the exact same desires and expectations. While it is good that you know exactly what you want, if their is no flexibility there, you need to be very patient in finding it. Based on my understanding, after reading your profile, it doesn't surprise me that you are having a bit of trouble finding exactly what you are looking for. We have been swinging actively for about six years, and I'll have to admit, we have only played with a few couples in that time that we would really want to play with again. Even fewer couples that we actually have played with more than once. Fortunately, that is fine with us. But in your case, I would expect that that is a lot of what you find frustrating. With four people that all have to click together, it isn't unusual for one of the four to decide that they don't want to go there again. I actually think that what you are seeking in regards to repeat play with others, is something that happens by accident more often than it is successfully sought out. Other than that, without knowing you personally, I can't really give any insight into what the problem might be. I do suspect that you may be trying to hard though, which most folks can pick up on and will be put off by.

I think cheating in this lifestyle is just as painful as in monogamous relationships. Cheating isn't really about sex so much as it is about betrayal. When a couple is swinging together, it is (or should be) done with the consent and knowledge of the other partner. When one of the partners goes beyond that trust and cheats, it is a betrayal.

I don't know if I would use the term feminizing at all but we sure have encountered a lot of very passive men. They may have just sat there a lot but they did not appear feminin at all. I think there are multiple factors taking place here. I'll share some of my thoughts and I realize that some of my thoughts are not going to be popular or without controversy but since when have ever been afraid of some contro:lol: Here are just some random thoughts in no particular order. - I think most of your true manly-man macho guys would rather cheat than swing. Sure they may like to bring home another chick for their wife to roll around with and for them to fuck for some extra poontang but they don't want any other guys touching their property. So the most aggressive and sexually dominant males of society are not in the lifestyle to begin with. - I don't think males in the LS are feminine but many do seem to see their partners as more of equals and are more respectfull of their mates and of other women than many vanillas I have known. they seem more accepting and supportive of their mates exploring and enjoying their sexuality rather than of controling their mates sexuality like you often see in the vanilla world. - I think there is an actual fear of male sexuality and male assertiveness in the lifestyle. The curse of death for a male in the lifestyle is to be thougth of as "pushy" or as "aggressive." I have had many men tell me and I have read many forum posts where men say they would rather sit in the corner and be thought of as a wimp than to risk being thought of as pushy. - So much of the lifestyle is geared towards the female bi experience that men have in a way been indoctrinated to sit in the corner and keep their mouths shut and keep their hands to themselves. I know of several couples personally where the female half pretty much has the male half under lock and key and he is not allowed to participate with any women at all while she is out picking up her own chicks. In those cases it is not a case of feminizing men but more of a metaphorical catrastion by their own wives. - Some men are so into the fem/fem thing that really aren't all that interested in swapping and just want to watch their wives with other chicks. They may play along a little bit if a woman starts to come on to them but their heads aren't really in the game. - Then closesly related to the above men, some guys aren't feminized they are just downright lazy. I call them " Dud Males."They may be fine with the idea of some kind of swapping but for the most part they just sit there and it is the female half that is the driving force behind the couple being in the lifestyle. It is the female that attracts the couples and sets up the playdates and when the clothes come off she is the one diving in and playing with both parties of a couple but once the other male half wraps her legs around his shoulders, the dud male is just sitting in the chair while the poor wife who's husband is pounding the dud males wife like a porn star is trying to get him into the game.

How many here play Monopoly with "Free Parking" being like hitting a little lottery? I know I do! Cha-CHING!!! I love it! Of course, I am well aware that the "official" rules actually address this - and "Free Parking" is not like hitting a slot machine. It is actually just a space that you can land on without consequence and without reward. No money from the middle of the board, no nothing. It is just a space where you can sit. Still we play the game with "Free Parking" paying off - based on our own self-defined house rules. Everyone agrees to the house rules and it makes the game more fun for everyone playing. So - when I land on "Free Parking" - my wife and kids may get frustrated that I just got a bundle of money, but I am playing by the rules - OUR rules. Now let me ask you - am I cheating? Am I cheating because I am not playing by the "official" Monopoly Tournament rules? Have I cheated because I transgressed the lines of someone else's rules? Or have I not cheated because I have stayed clearly within the boundaries of our own, family-agreed-upon "house rules"? Swinging is "house rules". No - it isn't within the social rule set; the social norms. Yes it is definitely a home made "game twist". In most ways, our marriage is just like everyone else who has a strong, faithful, honest, communicative, laughing-tickling-giggling marriage. Just like in most ways our Monopoly games look like those crazy tournament games. But we have a subtle twist that makes it just a little more fun So - cheating would be stepping outside of the "house rules" that we - as a family - have established. That would mean slipping a $500 out of the bank when no one else is looking, moving your piece one extra space to avoid Park Place because no one else is counting, or sneaking around our spouse's back to set up liaisons with playmates... Cheating is stepping out of the rules that we as a family have decided makes Monopoly fun; regardless of what rules others have. And cheating is stepping outside of the rules and boundaries that we, as a couple, have established to expand our marital fun. Whether that means always playing together - always answering e-mail as a team - not giving out cell numbers to the opposite sex... Whatever rules that WE have put in place to make this work and get us to the other side of this adventure together - regardless of how much those differ from the rest of the world or other swingers - when either of us steps outside of those, we have cheated... And the game has soured... And "Free Parking" won't pay out anymore...

Here is my take on it. We have only been in the lifestyle a short time but we both feel the same. If one of us does something that the other does not know about it is cheating. A few weeks before our wedding my now husband cheated on me. I feel that I got over it more quickly then most would but that was because of the tremendous amount of trust that we have for each other. He came clean the very next day and told me the whole truth. that made it a lot easier to work through. I was just as hurt as anyone else would be. I think it may hurt more because they know if they really want to get in bed with someone all he would have to do is ask me and invite me in. He realizes that now too and is very sorry that he almost lost us. We are doing great now but we will always be together when it comes to any sexual activities.