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It's one thing to trust your partner's assertion of selectivity, foolish or not, but I don't know how one can even begin to trust every other person that the partner plays with. It's foolish to assume every person that person has played with are ALL selective and can somehow weed out those with HSV2 just from their tremendous selectivity. I've been debating this concept of trust and safety and how it relates to oral sex, use of condoms and other STD preventative measures. Condoms or other barriers are absolutely no guarantee, especially if the same aren't used for oral sex. So, perhaps one should just have sex with those they "trust". Yet, even if one were to trust their partner, trust for one person just cannot be extended to everyone else that person has had sex with. If it's already foolish enough to trust one partner's judgment based on this arbitrary "I'm selective" about relative strangers, then it's completely foolish to trust their other partner's judgment about everyone that person has had sex with, and so on. So, by default, the partner one might want to trust, can't be trusted either. Sigh. If I think too much (which is pretty much all the time) about this, I end up in the "maybe it's just not worth it" or I think I need to fuck in a HazMat suit. There is certainly plenty to think about in this thread and forum about safety and risk tolerance (or lack thereof). Kudos to those few whom have disclosed their status and stories and take responsible steps regarding their status. That kudos is not extended to the couple that does not disclose their status and knowingly exposes others. That is just incomprehensible to me, and there's not enough bandwidth for me to express my dismay and disgust at that practice. Thank you 50sLady and TooMuchFun for sharing.

Our first experience was at a club and we had a 90 minute drive home afterward. The 'jumping out of the skin' remark earlier comes to mind, as well a lot of one word sentences... 'wow'... 'damn'... progressing to three worders, .... 'that was amazing', etc. We talked mostly about her side of the experience because, as I was to find later, she wasn't thrilled with mine as it, well, involved another female who made the mistake of complimenting me in front of her. That's a different thread. Once we got into her story, details, her feelings, how she enjoyed him, and my questions, we were overdosing on adrenalin. We'd been married ten years at the time and after arriving at home around 2am we suddenly realized that the light spilling into our bedroom was the morning sun. We had found something very new and exciting in each other.

I agree with this statement. When the accepted definition of swinging is "when a married or otherwise committed couple engages in recreational sex with other couples or singles" this means swinging is a "couples" activity that may include singles. To me, singles are simply having casual, recreational sex, they are not "swinging" by any true definition of the word used in a sexual context. Now they may be swingers based on playing the field and not wanting to settle down and having many sexual partners. But they are not swinging in the context of what a couple does and has to go through to do this.

Julie is absolutely right!! The problem is that most swingers think they are safe because they are using condoms. However, herpes is transmitted by skin to skin contact in the genital region and the male condom does not provide complete protection against all such contact. In fact, it does not cover many of the areas. Think about it. The rubber ends well before the base of the penis. The woman's outer and inner lips almost always contact the base of the penis. So, when a woman is infected, she is almost always exposing the man. The CDC still recommends using condoms but admits that there are no reliable studies on the overall effectiveness of condoms as a preventive measure against HSV. I think it is nearly universally admitted that condoms are not 100% effective. But, a growing body of evidence is suggesting that condoms are far less effective than had been previously thought. The other thing that most swingers refuse to recognize is that most infected people don't even know they are infected because they develop no external symptoms or have symptoms so slight that they don't recognize themselves as being infected. Moreover, most health professionals will not run a blood screen for HSV with an STD test because HSV is so common today that one in four will screen positive for the antibody even though they may never have contracted a sufficient infection to be a carrier or had any symptoms. Even when you ask to be screened for STDs, the HSV test is generally not ordered unless you specifically complain of symptoms related to HSV or have an observable outbreak (or specifically ask for the test). So, that long trusted couple who tells you they don't have anything, they probably don't know and don't think they do. Truth is, this disease is so misunderstood and stigmatized that those with it simply will not admit to it under any circumstances. And, why should they. An honest couple might be respected, but they would still be treated as lepers by the swinging community at large. Worse, anyone choosing to associate with them (either because they were HSV positive themselves or because they had evaluated the risks and had decided to play anyway) would run the risk of being branded as lepers purely through association. So, you should assume that your playmates know that they are HSV positive but are unwilling to tell you the truth because they know that they are on a suppressive therapy and haven't had an outbreak in years. It is probably a rationalization, but the HSV positive couple probably thinks that the risk of contracting the disease from them is lower than having sex with someone who thinks they are clean. After all, a person who suffers symptomatically generally knows when an outbreak is in progress or on the way and is benefiting from suppressive therapy. Also, there is at least a 25% chance that the supposedly clean couple you might play with is not.

By your definition of swinging...which, I believe is what this thread boils down to...everyone's own definition of swinging and if they are a swinger. Exactly! There are dimensions upon dimensions when it comes to defining what is and what is not swinging and who is or is not a swinger. Everyone's definition will be different. No one being right or wrong. What swinging is to Ted and I, as a couple and as individuals, will be totally different for someone else. As it is with life in general, few things are ever black or white...just different shades of gray...swinging is no different. All a person can do is define what it means to them or what they want it to mean, seek out those who think/feel the same way and let the fun begin. Teresa

I’m writing this as a guy, so I hope that this helps you out. Guys are conditioned to keep things to themselves, mainly because our experiences tell us it is best to keep our mouths shut! Throughout our lives we have gotten a lot of grief from the women in our lives when we spoke completely openly and honestly with them. And being a closet bi-sexual male is one of those absolute taboo things. He has probably been Bi for many years and fears the repercussions of telling you his true desires. I try to be completely open and honest with my lady, but it is difficult. Difficult because I have to overcome 50 years of fear. I do it, but it is difficult. It is really difficult to do it face to face sometimes, even now. The challenge for you is to convince him that he can tell you the truth without repercussions. We are all emotional beings, and when talking face to face we are hearing the words but also reading your body language. We are watching for that slight flinch or we might misunderstand an expression on your face while you are thinking about what we just said. The method that my lady and I have worked out is that we talk about difficult subjects via e-mail to each other. It allows each of us to take the time to think about what the other is saying and respond while dealing with our emotions. It works for us. Also, it is probable that your husband has had Bi encounters in the past, most likely in the couple of years that the two of you were separated. He may be having Bi encounters now. You will need to deal with that possibility in advance so you are already prepared for “the worst,” and you will be prepared to not have a shocked look on your face at the time that he comes out with what he really desires. You need to let him know that you are ok with it and that you want to share your desires as a couple. I am not actively Bi myself. I had a few encounters many, many, years ago as a young man. My lady knows about it, so it isn’t an issue with us. Hopefully this will be of some help to you, and good luck! Let us know how it goes.

Our club did have two symbols that made absolutely no sense to anyone outside. My wife and I met with several people because of the pendant (Nickle with the year of our joining. Not very expensive but effective) or car window card(easily removed). What do you do when you meet someone with the magic marker? Walk up and say Hi, what's the date on your nickle? Then you shoot the breeze about your experiences and if it seems right you make arrangements for a get-together. My visit in Big Spring Texas was a good example (in the swinger story section). Barb would choose whether to wear the pendant out or under her blouse. I usually carried it in my pocket, especially at work. A two bit piece might have the wrong connotation, but who knows? For a while we used a little pin on button that had the word JERKS with a diagonal line through it. That worked until vanilla people liked it and it got away from us. It was a great way to meet like minded people. Just bite the bullet (or apple), somebody, and do it. Make it inexpensive so that if it gets away from the community, it can easily be replaced.

Fun4D's ty for replying.*s* Well when I chat with new ppl I tell them up front and just assume they have NOT read our profile. I guess I don't consider my chair a prob because it doesn't stop me from doing what I want. Since I've never walked I actually feel sorry for ppl who can walk. I mean it looks so uncomfortable and all I hear is ppl complain about sore feet and tired legs...its gotta suck!*LOL*

I keep face pics in a private gallery, which is opened only if both we agree we wish to open it to the OP. As to the wheelchair pics, I personally think it might be most fair to post a pic, or move your disclosure closer to the top. Perhaps not a popular or PC opinion, but many people have limited time, and they want what they want, shallow or not, and they may want to know these things upfront and they may not read all the profile to see your disclosure. It's no different than people wanting others to post true and accurate pictures of their current body type/shape or to disclose herpes upfront, etc. I've noticed that some people become resentful if they feel their time has been wasted by misrepresentations or omissions of things they consider important. But, like all else on this Board, it's only an opinion. You have to do what's right for you, but somepeople ARE shallow, especially in rec. sex domain. Shallow of others? Perhaps. There are others, however, whom it won't make a difference, and those who appreciate the straight-up honesty as much as your looks, etc.

We have been swinging since May 2002...we are an in love interracial married couple (she black, he white)...75% of our swinging is mfm threesomes for a variety of reasons (she loves being the center of attention, loves to have two dicks to play with and pleasure her, I am recovering from prostate cancer) and we always start with a social meet and greet to see if we all get along and to see if my wife and the new guy have a sexual attraction. The show rate for the guys is 33% (for constrast - the couple show rate is 100%). We have found out that our best bet for a successful meet and greet followed by successful play time are guys who are in fact married that are playing with their wife's permission (we were surprised by how many there are) - we know they have their wife's permission as we meet with both so we have it right from her in person......they turn out to better lovers, have fewer issues, want more than a one night stand....just one couple's view but you asked for opinions....this is ours..

There are many risks they share in common, as you say, but the in a most important way single players are very different from marrieds. The risk of sharing your spouse sexually has no parallel for singles. Singles don't have to trust someone with their spouse, they don't have to trust their spouse, and they don't have the relationship risks and challenges. This adds up to a huge difference, IMO. When people in a committed relationship agree to share each other sexually, the sharing is between them, even though the sex is with others. It's a gift they give to each other: the gift of sex with others. There is nothing of the kind for singles. Doesn't make one better, or more "real", but it does make the whole thing very, very different in nature. We are all part of the lifestyle, but strictly speaking, only committed partners can "swing".

I wouldn't go in for paid sex, but I have noticed the single males who show up with flowers for the Mrs and a bottle of *good* Scotch for me are always a bit more welcome for repeats.

Compared to the costs of traveling to a swinger's convention, hotel takeover, membership and entrance fees, wining, dining and "dating" couples or women you meet off the 'net and paying for the room, it's actually a bargain price.

Sure, there's a big difference between swinging and prostitution, let me go ahead and acknowledge that up front so that no one flames me for the rest of my response. I've "dated" male prostitutes in the past, and was fortunate enough that they either really did want me, or were amazing actors. Sure, they always cost me something, but at that time in my life, it was much easier to pay up front and get what I wanted out of the transactions with no negotiations or manipulations, than to go with the extended cost of maintaining a relationship with a non-professional. I was dancing for a living at the time, so there was always a "cost" to me when there was a man in my life, whether it was supporting some schmuck, or just the emotional cost of having to deal with a man dealing with my job. My honey currently has a little gf who is terribly fun and entertaining, but always costs us 50-100 bucks everytime we see her. Not as an outright fee, but just because she's always short of rent, or needs gas money, or whatever. She's just one of those people. It's worth it to me to give her what she needs, because I know she's going to make my honey feel attractive and wanted when she's around. Same thing? I don't know, I don't waste time worrying about it. It is what it is. So obviously, no, I have no moral quandry with prostitution. To me, a good escort is just another toy. I can buy a mondo fucking machine, or I can rent a walking, talking toy that will rub my feet and leave when I'm done with him. I know that some people (obviously not the open-minded, live and let live people found here) would take offense at my viewpoint on it. But, it's their life, let them have at it. Yes, it's nice when the planets align correctly and the elusive unicorn or amazing couple wanders into your life, but I'm not going to let someone elses ideas of what's "right" or "wrong" affect what I do with my sex life. As long as we're all consenting adults, who cares what we're doing behind our closed doors?

If you are going to do that at least go to a legal regulated brothel in Nevada and not some street ho somewhere turning tricks for her next crack hit. There actually are quite a few couples that do go to the brothels there and for some fairly legitimate reasons. There was a special on HBO about that recently and it featured a swinging couple that went to a brothel for an FMF and the reasons they stated were that not only was it hard to find a single fem but it was really hard to find a single fem that would have an encounter with them on THEIR TERMS. There are single fems that will join you but they want it on their terms and a lot of them are downright flakey and have a lot of issues. The thing that struck me was the couple in this documentary were downright beautiful. They were no ordinary John and Jane Doe swinger, they were hot and they said they had no trouble getting couples or single guys and they even attracted single gals but the single gals always had an agenda of their own and they (they couple) just wanted to have a simple no strings hook up and be done with it (remember the line from Pretty Women, "men don't pay hookers for sex, they pay them to leave when the sex is over.") Personally I see prostitution and swinging as two completely different things with very little in common with each other. But if all you wanted was a simple pain free FMF where you could pick out a drop dead gorgeous 20-something chick and call all your own shots and not have to put up with any of her shit it may be worth the $. Yes a hot chick on a Sat night may run you a couple thousand dollars but that same chick on a Tuesday morning may only be a few hundred. The fact that it is legal, regulated, safe,private and they have monthly VD checks is worth the extra expense. A few years back my spouse and I went to a spa and had a professional massage therapist give us massages and it was fun, relaxing and pleasurable although nonsexual. I really don't see any difference between that and a legal professional prostitute providing a service. If both you are your partner are ok with it I don't see anything wrong with it. It's your $

I don't know. I know in swinging I have thought "If I had brains I'd be getting paid for this shit vs. doing this for free" LOL, I'm kidding. Sort of.

When I (Babe) was growing up, my parents were very active in what they called "The Gourmet Club". A bunch of their friends would get together and they would try out new recipes. Funny thing, I don't remember my mother ever making anything special for the "Gourmet Club". She would make regular food to take to parties. Now that I am in the Lifestyle, I can look back with a different eye and see little things that might have been clues. Like the 3 or 4 couples that were in the "Club" were very close to each other. My Mom passed away about 10 years ago, and my Father remarried. Yep, he married someone who had been in the "Gourmet Club". I get along very well with my stepmom, and she found out this past summer that Bear and I were in the Lifestyle. While talking about it to her, she knew some of the "catch phrases" that swingers use. She knew what a exclusive relationship was. Bear and I were in one at the time. I did not have to explain what the terms "Lifestyle" and "Vanilla" ment. So that just got me thinking even more that maybe my parents were swingers at one point in their lives.