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jnbsmokin~ I think you and your husband are playing a lot of games with each other and fooling yourselves about many things surrounding swinging. It's time to look beyond the one-ups you're throwing each other and get real. From what you've written, here is what I understand: 1. You don't feel comfortable about your body and are intimidated by women who you feel look more attractive. 2. Your husband doesn't feel comfortable about his looks either, since he doesn't like you having interest in or playing with better looking men than himself. 3. You're only swinging experience has been with single males in threesums (and you said in another post that those weren't good experiences). 4. You've not yet met couples or played with them so I imagine that you've not met with any of the women (I presume they are of couples) that your husband continually emails and flirts with. 5. You want one thing, your husband wants another, and neither of you is willing to budge. What you both want is very restrictive and you aren't willing to expand on who you will consider swinging with. Example: you don't want to play with women your age and your husband only has interest in women your age. You've taken one for the team and you don't want to do that again. That's good because doing so never works. From what you've described of your husband's online activities, I don't think his primary interest (anymore) is swinging, rather, he is a cyber swinger - he probably realizes that's likely all he's ever going to get since you two can't come to terms on meeting people. His interest in swinging is no doubt still there, but he's realized he's got to get his fix/fun/sex through the keyboard. He's enjoying the ego-boost that you mention. There are plenty of women who have fun with that - no matter who the person is - and these women never have intentions of meeting. Sometimes knowing they are turning on a guy who they'd never let near them for sex is a game for them they enjoy. You mention that you are in a sub relationship with your husband. This probably plays a role in how he sees things and why he may be expecting you to bend to what he wants. Maybe it's time to take a look at that relationship and how well it's working in your marriage overall, not just in regards to sex or swinging. I'm sorry I can't be positive here, but I'm not getting an indication that there is anything positive in your stance at this point. Either you'll both have to make some big changes in your view of yourself and others, be more flexible, agree to some rules and stick to them, or swinging isn't going to ever turn out like you are hoping. LM

Okay, now I feel bad. I'm actually the person in question, and I meant my original reply mostly tongue in cheek. (Especially the bit about being better than an old fashioned glory hole.) My original commentary, btw: "Heh...there's all kinds of boards/magazines/etc for swingers. Those meat markets always struck me as a little impersonal, but at least they're a step up from an old-fashioned glory hole. ;)" See I did come and check out the page, Julie! Even if it was after running my big fat mouth. *grins* I'm good at that, and I'll apologize to everybody here for pre-judging without looking first. I definitely don't have a problem with swingers, though I admit for some reason the word has a negative connotation in my mind. (Dunno exactly why, media I guess) But the idea that I'm putting down a whole community of folks without even knowing them is not cool, and I should know better. Ummm...anywho...I'm here and looking and quite red in embarrassment. I'm sure you guys will see me posting here and there, feel free to give me the reaming I deserve.

It seems to us that most of the couples we have met first started playing in their 30s. We are wondering if our perception is accurate, or not. So, we thought we'd ask. When did you have your first group sexual experience? It doesn't have to be shared sex to qualify, it can be simply be shared voyeurism, etc. (but something more than just watching another couple kissing, please).

I believe this "swingers vs. nudists" thing is a case of overlapping groups. Not all nudists are swingers, not all swingers are nudists. Anybody who doesn't renew their membership in an organization simply because they have been "approached" by swingers is probably too thin-skinned to be in that organization in the first place. There have been numerous accounts of pedophiles being associated with "family friendly" nude organizations. How many members have you lost because of that association? You mentioned Cherry Lane and Paradise Lakes, both clubs we have visited and enjoyed. But we were far more comfortable at Cherry Lane because they didn't allow children on the premises. It's fairly well accepted by those in law enforcement that one of the ways pedophiles operate is by conditioning children to believing that "it's OK to be naked". That may be true in an adult, philosophical way, but with children, especially those approaching puberty, those lines become blurred. If my kids want to become nudists, they'll have their whole lives to be so, starting when they're young adults. For right now, I want them to be uncomfortable around strangers, especially strangers who are naked, and who tell them it's OK for them to be naked also. You said that you "don't mix nudism with swinging" Well, there are things WE don't mix also, such as "nudism" and "raising our children"

Are you sure you understand WHY you want to swing??? What do you intend to get out of it??? Who do you think is going to want to swing with you two??? and why? (assume all your potential playmates can clearly see the potential drama in your eyes)

First...Don't ever worry about your post being too long...the more information the easier it is to give advice. You've ran into one of the problems with swinging with couples...finding four people who are all attracted to each other. I wouldn't worry about him e-mailing/chatting whatever with younger, hotter women...that may be the kind of woman he picks but, they also have to pick him. It seems to me that you should give his words back to him... As to what to do...you both have to be in agreement on the couple you play with...if you're not, resentment will eventually set in if one of you feels like you've taken one for the team. Swinging is suppose to be fun...for both of you. Teresa

It's sad when society judges what consenting adults do as a perversion. But, it's downright hilarious when a person practicing one 'perversion' gets preachy about someone else's 'perversion'.

Well...I really don't want to burst your 'open relationship' bubble/label...but there are quite a few people in the lifestyle that play precisely the way you describe. They want to be friends first and then the sex...whatever you may think you 'know' about swinging might just be turned on it's ear by reading the Board and profiles on SLS (saw you joined there). Swingers don't just drop trou for all and sundry...many of us tend to be pretty picky about who we will and will not play with...so strike that myth down. As for not playing as a couple, there are folks in the LS that also play that way...it's hard to get 4 people that are sexually compatible, so for some they choose the separate play. I don't necessarily think this is the case. In everyday life there are probably women that will play with you...I've been a cheater before...and my playmates were married men. I know, I know...take my swinger card away and stone me now. I am NOT insinuating that you are cheating, obviously your wife is in the know...I'm just trying to illustrate the point that I wasn't looking in clubs or on personals sites for playmates, they were men I knew from a vanilla setting. If you are looking on SLS for playmates, I will agree that you may have a more difficult time finding a playmate that thinks you are legit. I'm confused here...first you say you aren't playing as a couple...but here you mention bringing another female in. Can you please elaborate? You're half way there! Can't wait to see it Also...

After reading over this numerous times I see the whole incident as a big failure at communication. No where did I see that the four of you discussed what everyone's expectations of the night were. If I find myself in any situation I'm not comfortable in...I remove myself from it. I'm going to point out some points in the evening that if they had been handled differently, the evening might have gone more to your liking. Your wife could have asked for clarification...How are you going to take care of him? Why didn't you follow them in? You could have. This would have been a good opportunity for all to have sat on the bed together and discuss expectations. It's possible that during this time she was waiting for you to make a more aggressive move. You could have gotten up, opened the door, walked in and joined them. Since there was no discussion earlier in the evening as to the way everyone was expecting it to play out, and unless you had agreed that your wife and this man were going to play the whole evening alone, there's no reason you couldn't have joined them. After all, sitting there by yourself wasn't making you happy. It's great that you found something good out of a less than ideal situation. That's the important thing. Hindsight is 20/20 so don't beat yourself up over this. You've learned something and in future encounters you'll do better. Just remember, everyone needs to be on the same page and communicate with the other couple what your expectations are as well as theirs.

Great topic! It seems like "Swingers" has somehow become a bad word. Honestly, we usually refer to it as "playing" even with each other. I'm not sure how that has happened, it just did. We have done a bit of the open marriage thing, and have enjoyed it. We still called it playing. We like to play with others at the same time and place too. As Vegas Lee often says, swinging is about consensual sex with others. (In my opinion, Vegas Lee usually hits the nail right on the head). I really don't consider it a lifestyle, just a fun thing we do sometimes. Maybe we put too much stock in terms. Who cares what we call whatever we do. Obviously some others do. Should we come up with a more palatable name for it? Any suggestions?

We might not all be robots but we can still strive to be tolerant of each others sexuality without an overemphasis on tiny differences/preferences which might exist from time to time.

I wouldn't use it, but because I am aware it could make the other party unconfortable. Even when we're poly friendly... or preciselly because we are, there are certain words we take seriously. Even more when the people around us, knowing we're poly friendly, could make a wrong guess. Lover implies some relationship, often hidden, going on along time. We wouldn't use this word, even when we may tell people "I love you" (and yet, this wouldn't be said to one half of a couple without the other half being aware of this). So, even when I may love you, and have sex with you, we're not "lovers".

I don't like the word "LOVER" for two big reasons... 1) The only person I make love to is Amelia. With women, it's just sex. Sure, sometimes it's really passionate and intense sex... but sex none the less. 2) "Lover", in my mind, imparts an aura of dishonesty or illicit behavior. I've always considered "Lover" to the male equivalent of "Mistress". A woman having an affair has a lover. A man having an affair has a mistress. We use "Playmate", "Playfriends" or "Friends-With-Benefits" when speaking with each other or those in the loop. To our vanilla friends, we simply refer to them as "Friends".

It's been our experience that it's much easier for a couple to set up a gang bang after they have been in the lifestyle for awhile and developed a network of reliable single men. Some couples think that just because there are so many single men in the lifestyle that setting up a gang bang is easy, but a lot of single men aren't comfortable in a gang bang setting. For some it's performance anxiety, for others it's being that close to other men that they don't like, and for some it's just not their thing. If you have developed a network of single men that you have played with you have a good idea who would be open to a gang bang and who wouldn't. We haven't ever planned a gang bang, but if we wanted to we don't think it would be hard since we have a lot of single men that we know in the lifestyle. We both enjoy the gang bang scenario, but all of the ones we have been involved in have been in party situations and spur of the moment. We aren't sure if you took the spontaneity out of it if we would enjoy it as much. There is a couple that we met at our last party that is interested in setting up a gang bang with us for the ladies and we may be working on it soon. If we do we will post about how we set it up and how it turns out.

You know, I've been thinking about this wheelchair post since I read it the other day. I think that the main concerns I would have as someone who hasn't spent much time with people in wheelchairs would be mostly mechanical, and whether or there'd be any 'feeling' down there. You've already mentioned that would be the case. So then with that settled, I think the next things on my mind would be the same whether or not you're in a chair. Attitude, attraction, all that. There've been several couples whom we would not have ever thought to contact that we've met through other means that have ended up being fantastic to get to know. We've had several 'can't judge a book by its' cover' moments.

There are more than office staff that will read your files! If you ever apply for any type of life insurance please know that you are required to allow the insurance company to request your medical records. Once they leave that doctors office those records come into contact with many people. From the rep who is writing the policy, the staff of the rep, and underwriters from the insurance company. (I know this because I work for a rep!) So if this is something you would like to be kept confidential please ask your physician not to even note it in your file. Like the previous post says it is also a good idea if you don't want anyone to know you have been tested for STD's to go to your local clinic to do so and whatever you do dont submit to you medical insurance. Any claims that are submitted to you medical insurance are open for scrutiny in applying for life insurance as well as thrown on the table for others to see. mrs. njcpl85

These people sound like they are control freaks. Run as fast as you can from them! There is no way I would let someone tell us "my wife wouldn't have sex with them if I was present." Everything about this situation is just wrong! Nasty wrong!!!!