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It seems that people, by and large, need to define themselves and their activities. Everyone likes to label. If this were not true, outside of the need for communication, the dictionary would be useless. There is an issue with the lifestyle. That issue is the lack of a specific and exact naming convention. (Sorry! I am a computer geek) I am only newly entering the lifestyle myself, however, in my search for definition of what my wife and I are, we have come across so many stumbling blocks in this quest. "We are what we are" is a fine sentiment. However, it leaves too much to the imagination. Think of those who do go to the clubs and consider themselves swingers simply for having gone. To them, they are swinging vicariously. Again, a consortium of like minded individuals throughout the lifestyle community would do well to set up a specific set of standards and ideals which would dictate who and what a swinger is. This standard would prove problematic however. As virtually everyone views their activities and involvement differently. This standard would need to be less generalized and more linear in its labeling. This would cause the number (Statistically speaking) of defined swingers to drop in count as well as more people would be defined as anything but “Swingers”. Again, these are just the thoughts of a newbie. However, like most people in the world, I name things and define my actions with a label in order to be better understood by those around me. Now there are my two cents.

That is the whole point of discussions like this, in my opinion. To many people haven't taken the time to educate themselves. If a discussion like this inspires one or two people to become better informed, that is all one can ask. Actually, that is why the researchers estimate between 80% and 95% (depending on which researcher is giving the percentage) of the population will test positive for HSV-1 or HSV-2 antibodies by the time they reach 50 years of age. That doesn't mean every one of them will develop active Herpes, my understanding is that it just means that at some point they were exposed to the virus. This is another reason why most doctors see no reason to ever test for it.

Yes, some don't care, and some only care what it means to them. Others would love the structure a label system or framework would provide. Perhaps it could be helpful overall. I just don't think that you will get consensus for many subsets of alternative sex arrangements. For instance, I do not agree with Bama's definition of open marriage. I thought I was in an open marriage, but his definition has enough characteristics that do not jive with my definition. And I could be in any of his other categories at any particular time, depending on what I feel like doing, if I or we decide (at times) to swing. So, I'd end up being an outlier because I just can't pin myself down to any particular category of his, and don't meet his definition for what I think I am right now. And then we could get into the whole "who is deciding on the definition?" I mean, if you aren't in an open marriage or aren't a full swap couple or a voyeur, do you really have a basis to define it for those who are actually in an open marriage or a full swap couple or a voyeur? Or we could discuss the fact that not all humans want to be labeled; quite a few would prefer to live and let live, and leave the labels and limitations imposed by a definition out of their life and expression thereof. It is certainly more flexible to not have a detailed definition system, but to simply remain in a broad category such as "swinger" or the other broad categories that exist to allow for personal expansion of ones boundaries and beliefs.

Actually, I wasn't equating his question to "wives as tools". It was an analogy. My point being that I do not 'let' men fuck my wife. She does. As for the "partners in crime" - I do not share your literalist view of the phrasing used in this thread... And will continue to use that phrase to describe mine and Mrs Spoo's relationship. Sorry, but semantic arguments irritate me, especially when the meaning on both counts should be fairly obvious.

I believe that sexuality is a matter of declaration and has little to do with sex. At some point in life you define to yourself what you are sexually and only you can decide what that definiton is. If a homosexual is celibate does that make them straight?

It's funny, but as I was reading this, I was thinking exactly the same thing. Lea and I entered the lifestyle to experience a variety of partners. Although, as with most responses here, it isn't as though we swing indiscriminantly. On a side note, that last statement just conjured up a piñata image that I wish I'd had during the t-shirt contest Given what I see as the theoretical basis for the existence of the lifestyle in the first place, I find it hard to believe that anyone would take the view that those who have had a variety of partners are too experienced. But maybe that's just my perception as a "newbie." On the other side of the coin, there's this. The "lowly newbie" issue in particular isn't a whole lot different, in my opinion, than highschool - the whole "lowly freshman" thing. I don't know anyone who was just born an experienced swinger, so you were all there once. How would you get to be experienced if no one would help guide you? I certainly can respect that those new to the lifestyle are more likely to not yet know where their limits are and are, therefore, subject to higher rates of drama. But, you know, I've seen just as many "experienced swingers" in tears in a club due to a lack of maintanence of those limits. And sometimes drama just happens. I guess I'd say that we avoid couples who seem too set on having exactly the "right" amount of experience in a partner. If you ask how long we've been in the lifestyle and there's a wrong answer, you're probably not for us. We're in the lifestyle for finding our sexual selves not playing "guess the number." ~Lea's Mike

This is a very interesting question. We over the years have heard the negatives associated with the labels: "experienced" , "seasoned" and even "newbies" I'm not sure why we feel a need to label each other but I guess it's a way of talking about our level of experience. For swingers in gerneral maybe we need a color scale or something better to work from to give others our level of experience or our preferences in the lifestyle. Green for instance being new, blue being less than 5 years in the lifestyle, yellow more than 5, etc. Something that hasn't come to mean something bad. For us personally I would have to say we are experienced and seasoned, but we're so much more than what those labels say we are. We are very selective, very secure, we spend a great deal of time talking with and helping new couples find their way. We run a swing club, so the opportunity to socialize with like minded people is always there, but the opportunity to play rarely exists, which is why we are pretty selective in our choices. We don't have the social hang ups or insecurities sometimes associated with "newbies". We also aren't bed jumpers, we are those people who like to make friends first, or at least know something about those we choose to have sex with. So I guess instead of using the terms "seasoned" or " experienced" I will label us Educated Open Minded Secure Swingers. Trish

I think negative and positive perceptions about experienced swingers tend to balance over a large population or time. "Newbies" can at times, have just as negative or positive emotions about them, depending on the context. We've had about a dozen swinging adventures since we started almost a year ago. We looked for experienced swingers to play with. Since we were the only newbies in the pile, we felt confident that any drama that developed in the playtime would be comming from us. We felt we had a decent handle on our drama throttle and that meant drama was unlikely for the evening. We felt comfortable with the several couples with 10 years or more in the lifestyle. That level of experience with an activity and still having a zest for new opportunities, surely says something positive about the way they think and act. They won our trust quickly. We could see compassion in their eyes - for each other and for us. We do not persue newbies to swing with - I think I have a low tolerance for drama and I see them as high risk for that. I enjoy meeting them at houseparties and talking a little with them. We'll flirt and grope in the hot tub if they are interested but we would be very unlikely to play with them at the first meeting. We're still exploring the options within swinging, so I feel comfortable considering ourselves beginners until we've run through the menu a couple of times. Perhaps after that, we can enjoy helping a newbie couple find a fun path for themselves. I should also say that all but one of the newbie couples we've encountered so far, have been below our prefered age group (close to the age of our kids).