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To quote one of my favorite lines from George Orwell, "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." We all know it takes fortitude to be a revolutionary, but maybe a little revolution in our marital relationships is what we need (the operative word there is “little”). Another insightful philosopher once remarked that eventually “all revolutions evaporate leaving nothing but a bureaucracy.” After 23 years of marriage, 4 kids in 3 years, a couple of businesses to manage, elderly parents to care for, college tuitions and that stuff (i.e.,“life”) my marriage had become pretty much of a bureaucracy. It’s not that I didn’t love my spouse as I definitely did and do. It’s just that on a daily basis, after a hard day at the office, kids screaming, etc. we both began giving “short cut” responses and making a bunch of assumptions rather than fully engaging. Over the course of time, we'd both built up some expectations that were not being fulfilled. Without even realizing it, we’d slipped into a pattern of innocent, but “universal deceit” in our married life. I suspect that happens in every long term relationship, but less so where couples share intimately with others that helps maintain awareness (swingers maybe?). In all those years, I’ve never cheated on my wife. AND, I found that with the realization of getting older and having some friends drop dead, I wanted more out of life which I wasn’t getting at home. For a tune-up, we consulted a marriage counselor. After 10 expensive hours, she made some insightful observations as to how we talk at each other, and gave us some good pointers. Perhaps the best one is to leave the judgment out of whatever we have to say. For us, we are going to hear whatever others have to say to us. Whatever judgment we make about what's said, is our personal choice. You say you hold back out of fear of hurting your wife. That’s certainly noble and understandable. Taking care of the other person is part of what love is all about. But at the same time, the communication with your wife is also pregnant with your judgment(s) that has you “withholding”. The unspoken judgment is your assessment about what your wife can take, what she’s willing to take, what will be hurtful to her, etc. I’ll bet your wife is a remarkably strong woman who is tougher than she’s being given credit for, and she can well think for herself. I realized how strong my wife was when it occurred to me that she’s put up with me for all these years. A “tip” from the marriage counselor (for me and my wife, anyway) was to state things in terms of how you feel, not how you think the other person may feel. If you can get your wife to go along and do the same thing, it opens up some wonderful opportunities for good communications. If you can say something to the effect that “I feel . . .” How can she get that upset for you expressing your feelings if you’ve made it known that you love her and the relationship is secure. If you come from a position of revealing your feelings, she’ll probably appreciate the openness. Wouldn’t you appreciate (and respect the vulnerability) if she were that open with you? - - - I’m saying this NOT as a preachy “Dear Abby”, but just something that worked well for me and my wife. – And, I haven’t gotten her to agree to a damn thing yet! - - - But, I’ve also had more fun living my life in accord with a quote form Hellen Keller, as a historical figure I’ve admired. Ms. Keller once observed that “life is either a daring adventure, or nothing”. For me, I consciously choose every day to live that adventure with my wife, as opposed to separating or blindly bumbling along in a bureaucracy. I can not imagine how simple life would be if every day we told the truth, the whole truth (no witholds) and nothing but the truth on every ocasion. Good luck!

From the number of post we have here on a weekly basis from men, who like you want to get into swinging but their wife doesn't, I'd say your wife's response was probably very "normal". When swinging was first brought up in our relationship (before we really knew anything about swinging) I can't say I was reluctant...more curiously cautious. Group sex was a very exciting concept and especially a MFM threesome, which was what he was wanting us to try at the time but, not something that married people did (or so I thought). My one concern was I didn't want to cheat on my husband...I definitely didn't want to ruin the good thing we had. I relayed this concern to Ted and his response was "How can you cheat on me if I'm right there holding your hand?" To me it was a simple, straightforward, logical question/answer that made total sense, causing a paradigm shift in the way I viewed the definition of cheating. It was something he wanted to try and it was something that I wanted to try and if he didn't view it as me cheating on him then there just wasn't a reason for us not to try it. I don't know if people are "born" into swinging, maybe, maybe not but, I do believe that the way you're raised and the views and values that are instilled into you as a child, does play a part in it. I wasn't raised to believe that sex was "bad", just that once you were married your husband was the only one you had sex with. Luckily, I was also taught that just because something is right for one person doesn't mean it's right for another...which in essence allowed me to come to my own conclusions as to what was cheating and what wasn't when faced with that question in my life. You said that you and your wife just entered your 60s...I'm going to take a guess that she was raised "sex within marriage only" . If she was raised to believe that this was/is the only way then it's going to be difficult for her to shift her way of thinking. Some people are able to brush off the things they were taught growing up easily, for others, it's very difficult...your wife may be one of those that it's difficult for. If so, all you can do is respect her decision, share your views and hope that maybe, one day she'll change her way of thought. As to "learning to enjoy" something that you're reluctant to try...think of something that you really have no interest in trying but someone keeps hounding you to try...you eventually say yes to trying it just to shut them up...do you "learn" to enjoy it ? Or, do you become tolerant of it with an underlying feeling of resentment because you tried something just because you were pushed into it? I don't think you can "learn" to enjoy something that just isn't in the make up of who you are. For me, as a woman, swinging wasn't something I tried just because it would make my husband happy. It was something that was inside me all along and that I was lucky enough to have found someone who also had it inside of them. Nature or nurture?...I don't know. I do know not everyone is a swinger and that it can't be forced on someone who just doesn't have it inside of them. Teresa

Teresa was posting as I was starting my post and she brought up what I want to: the issue of you fearing your wife may feel hurt. Why do you feel your wife would be hurt? I think that is important to consider in this. Teresa makes a very good point, and that is if you trust your spouse enough to listen to you there is a way to discuss swinging without hurting her. You may have good reasons for worrying about her feeling hurt by you wanting to have sex with other women, but you may also be surprised to find that she could be very understanding, once she knows why you want to swing. My husband and I are similar in age to you. MrLM has reached his 60s and I'm still in my fifties. I was the one who brought swinging up and I think how you bring it up can make all the difference. I don't know exactly what you have said to your wife, and it may even be hard for you to remember how your words come out of your mouth, but I wonder if it could be possible that your wife may think she should say "no way, not in this life." This is a different twist to things but I think it has merit. If I had first asked my husband if he'd like to consider swinging, or what do you think about it, or would you be interested, he'd probably have said he's never had an interest, never thought about it and isn't interested. Had things went that way I may have felt the stop sign was in front of me and may have interrupted his words as "no way" and left it at that. But I approached him in a different way and I did it when we weren't having sex. I told him one night that I had something to discuss with him. From our 30+ years of marriage he knows that means there is a serious topic to discuss. When either of us brings up the "I want to sit down and talk about something" statement (which we have done throughout our marriage) we understand that there is going to be an important issue on the table, one that requires listening and careful thought about what the other is going to share. We have always looked forward to these times because something worthwhile always comes of it. We end up closer because of these discussions and learn more about each other. As background, you should know that my husband was the only man I'd ever had sex with before we started swinging. I was 50 when I brought up the idea of swinging and I explained that I didn't want to leave this earth only having had sex with one man. I have an incredible husband who always listens with his heart and thinks with his head. I knew he would listen, even if he said no to the idea I knew he'd consider what I had to say and I trusted that I could express myself in a way that he would not be hurt. I trusted him to listen and he did. My husband had a lot of great sexual experiences before we got married. He'd done the FMF and was in sexual situations that you could describe as similar to swinging, although at the time he never gave that a thought because he didn't know what swinging was. So for him, sexual exploration was something he'd already satisfied in his life and didn't have a curiosity for it now. However, when he realized my needs, he understood completely and was willing to open that part of himself again for us. He has been pleased to find how fun it is for him, for me, for us. I share our story because maybe there is some slight chance that your wife may see things differently if approached differently. Another thing I want to bring up is age. Being in your 60s I think you have to face the fact that there aren't a lot of people our age starting out in swinging. I'd suggest you consider how many swingers are in your age group in your area and whether you only want to swing within 10 years age difference of yourselves. Also, even though you may be open to people in their 40s, they may not be interested in you at your age. It could be frustrating for you and your wife to finally decide to swing, only to discover there aren't enough people out there to meet in order to find a match for compatibility. I hope you find that you can be happy with whatever the outcome.

I definitely do I'm sorry to hear about your wife's past and I'm glad that she found a way to "liberate" herself. I also appreciate your honesty and your tough skin when it's come to some of the answers you've read throughout the board....I believe you really do care about your wife and you really want to learn and understand the world of swinging and to share that with her. Bring up the topic, take the chance and bring her here to read and explore with you. It may never go beyond the exploration of reading but, the sharing of exploring together will bring you closer. Teresa

You're welcome Something I would like to also add, and something that I think is overlooked at times and touches on the above.... You mentioned fear in hurting the one you love with bringing up the topic of swinging...and if you truly love someone, you don't want to be hurtful. I get that. But...where's the trust? Without trust, there can be no love. Bringing up swinging with someone you love is a very fearful thing... Do you trust the person enough not to get angry? Do you trust them enough to not throw your deepest, darkest, desires back in your face? Do you trust them enough to hand them the proverbial knife aimed at your heart and soul and know that they won't stab you with it? Do you trust them enough to give them you? I know we often talk about communication being the key to any good relationship and as has been pointed out at different times, we rarely tell "how" to communicate successfully...I've pondered the "how" many times and it's not any easy question to answer. Honestly, I don't have an answer to the "how"...I just know that if the answer to the above questions are "yes", then the "how" takes care of itself. That may be a bit deep for some to understand but...everyone in their own way has taken that "leap of faith" and trusted the one they loved to trust and love them back. You either trust your wife to love you enough to talk to you about this (whether she ever wants to swing or not) or you don't. Teresa

AZCouple, Thank you for your service to this great nation! You be careful in Iraq and make sure that you let us know that you got home safely! As a Navy combat vet myself, with over three years at sea, I can appreciate your situation. In some ways, I think that serving today on long deployments is harder for you now than it was for me. My only communication back home to the wife and kids was through letters. We didn’t have e-mail and we might be able to place one short MARS call during the entire deployment. So we could always dream of a peaceful home waiting for us when we got back and we didn’t have to worry about it too much. Unfortunately, underway widows are a reality of life in the service. And quite honestly, I think you should table this until you get home. There really isn’t anything you can do about it right now. So take advantage of the next three months and take your soul out and look at it, and work out in your mind how you want this to be resolved when you get home. Not a hard and fast solution, but guidelines toward working through it with your wife. Normally, you could go to the Chaplin about this, but not in this case, because swinging could put you in a sticky situation with the military depending on who you talk to. The fact that you laid down the law that the marriage was over if she cheated should be abandoned. That is history, and there is nothing that you can do about it at this point as it sound to me that you do not want it to end. Tell your wife that what you want from her is for her to be honest with herself, and honest with you. Don’t push her into a corner that makes her feel that she does not have any choices for resolving this with you when you return. And make sure that she knows that you love her and want nothing more than to return safely home to her. Remember the KISS principal. Keep it simple stupid! Keep it simple and loose until you can get home. Then the two of you can work together to resolve this. In the mean time just ask her to be honest with herself and you and you two will be able to work it out. Good Luck!!!!! S

Just a thought, but instead of trying to convince your wife to swing, why not just discuss a group sex encounter (like she enjoys while watching porno). You say she enjoys those scenes. We know many couples who stay with their spouse and have sex in a room where others are having sex. We did this many times when we first started going to on-premise clubs, and still do. Sometimes we just don't feel like swapping; we're that into each other. One of the big rules at the clubs is no touching without asking. I'd bet she thinks she'd be pounced on and have no say in the matter, which is a common fear. If you approach it as you're going to have sex with each other only, then she may be intrigued. Take baby steps until she is comfortable. Good luck, Mrs. D

First, thank you for your sacrifice on behalf of our country. Some people are not meant for monogomy. Your wife sounds like she is one of those people. You knew she was a swinger when you married, but she's really acting more like a cheater than a swinger (which you know, and seems to be the problem). Swinging to us is an experience we share to enhance our sex life. Counseling - may be difficult to find someone who will counsel you without being judgmental. Actively seek a sex therapist and let them know up front about your lifestyle. I know this is doubly hard for you being deployed, and I just hate this for you. Having to deal with a cheating spouse while you're trying to do your job is just awful. Finally, put your foot down and put a stop to all swinging until you can work things out and she can respect your boundaries. Your post sounds like you feel you should open up and change, and I feel that she is the one who needs to put the brakes on because she's hurting you. Good luck, Mrs. D

I have to ask how long both of you have been in the Lifestyle? If not both, then who introduced who to the Lifestyle? Now to the lecture based on your post... Well, first thing I see here is that she is not being honest with you. Since we are only getting one side of the story (no offense) I would think there may be a lack of both communication and honesty/trust/love. The communication part could be that she has not expressed her 'needs' properly until your last conversation. As to the honesty/trust/love issue, I'll break it down like this... Honesty: You've already said that she had five single men over without ever mentioning it to you AND she knew it would make you jealous. This leads us to... Trust: I think that jealousy falls into this category (at least for me). If she didn't fear your anger/jealousy, she would have no need to hide things from you. You should both be able to come to a compromise as adults and not have these trust issues. I trust my wife with not only everything we own, but my life as well. She would never intentionally hurt me and I would never intentionally hurt her. Love: This one is a tough one for me to put into words, so bear with me... It would seem you both have a large rift between you. If you are both loving and respectful of each other, then there should be no subject and no physical or economic reason for her to stay or go. Love should be the reason she stays... not the greatest sex from you. To me this sounds like a 'line'. Spouses should stay with each other because of love, not just sex. Sex can be important, but it is not the end all and be all of a relationship. My wife is my best friend first... if you find that this is not the case with you and your wife, maybe you both need to seek proper counseling. Even if you consider her your best friend, I see things going on here that best friends would NEVER do to one another. If you truly love your wife and you believe that she truly loves you... SEEK HELP! You two need to communicate without emotion getting in the way of the information. I realize that this can be a HUGE hurdle to clear, but it is essential for both of you to understand one another. If this line of communication is not open properly, I don't believe you will be able to resolve the other issues correctly. I do hope you two can work it out. I hate to see any couple unhappy or break up, especially with a child in the mix. I apologize in advance if I seem harsh. I've been through a bad marriage and better communication would have let us work things out sooner so we wouldn't hurt each other so much. My first marriage had to end and it would have no matter what, there just wasn't that two way love going on. It was all one way from me to her... and her side was all 'lip service'.

I must say I was very reluctant when my husband first mentioned the idea of an MFM to me. I have always been sexualy adverturous, and had no objections to the idea of it. I just had some sort of vision that I would be 'servicing' two guys, when the reality ended up that it was the guys who were doing me (not me doing them). Many years later and more MFM's than I can count, I can only say that I first said, "OK, what the hell" after a year or so of my husband asking, begging, discussing, hoping, etc...It is a fine line a man walks between nagging/pestering and asking/hoping his wife will join in any sexual activity she is not immediately keen on. Good luck! Joan