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Just a quick post and run, but my primary thought is that who is to say your way, when you help "show the way" is the right way? It's right for you. It might be right for a certain percentage of others, but I don't see swinging, or anything else for that matter, as liberating when it starts to take away individuality in favor of a united front or if it turns into any form of a "this is the right way" mentality. I've not thought in a long, long time that swingers were much different than the general population. The predominant attitude or mentality I do get out of swinging is the general acceptance of personal choice with its inherent side of personal responsibility. That's about as far as I'm willing to go on a united front with swingers, as all I want out of this community is to be left alone to do what works for my life, and I'll do return the same to any other swinger. It would trouble me to have it any other way, actually.

Ideally point by point replies are not the best to encourage in depth discussion but there is so much going on here its perhaps the easiest way to proceed. Thats something unique to you, just like swinging being an extension of my personal philosophies. What leads one to swinging is going to be very different. From reading your wifes posts and this one, I'm going to say that about the only aspect we share in common is atheism and yet here we both are swingers. I would say for most swinging men its less homophobia and more that male homosexual behaviors are a turn off. While undoubtedly SOME swingers are truly male homophobic, I think most just don't' want to see it and when they are in a location where they want to feel sexy, they don't want the couple next to them being two guys doing things they consider unattractive to look at. Its not a condemnation, its not homophobia, its just 'get a room, a different room'. My personal feeling in this issue is that monogamy is in fact the normal behavior for humans as animals. Polyamory is much more difficult to have work and most polys tend to really be pair bonded with 'secondaries', but when push comes to shove, the original pair takes precedence. Our genes seem to promote monogamy with mild polygamy (male + multiple females). I personally think fighting ones genetics in terms of behavior is a lost cause and trying to do so results in unneeded human suffering. Semantics. My wife is my wife, as my wife she has certain obligations to me and as her husband I have certain obligations to her. Part of those obligations used to be no extra-marital sex, and we modified those obligations when we became swingers. Still what we have not different than what you have, nothing is a given. Still she is MY wife until either of us decides that she no longer is. As I'm sure you know by now, swingers are not out to change the world. Mrs. Chicup has no problem with 'the patriarchy' and in fact happily changed her name at the earliest possible time after our marriage. It was her choice and we have no problem with it. This is your fight but don't expect a whole lot of swinger recruits. Most of us have no problem with the traditional American family. I find M/M play to be unpleasant to look at, a good analogy would be people into 'water sports'. If you want to pee on each other thats fine, but I don't want to see it. Thats about the level I hold M/M activities at in terms of 'wanting to be near'. Thats your assumption and I think for a lot of newbie couples this is true. The men don't know if they can handle another man in the mix. This is not true in a lot of cases. I have no problem with my woman fantasizing about mutliple men and I am no where near a cuckold. Capitalism, supply and demand, for every single female perusing swingers there is a legion of men. This has more to do with how most male brains are wired for sex compared to females and less to do with liberation. Another point is that if a single female were to join my wife and myself, she (provided she were bi) offers more alternatives then a straight male does, though I do think this is minor. I don't think there are no suspicions, I think people are just more willing to over look them due to the rarity of single females. Many swinger couples will say they are not in charge of the other swingers morality and have no problem with married males or married females who are 'cheating'. Personally I think its irresponsible and stupid to play with either, I also think its immoral but thats another issue. While I am not surprised you dismiss the differences in motivations, I happen to believe in them, due more to my study of human behavior and evolutionary genetics, and nothing to do with a social patriarchy. While there need to be more male pictures online, I challenge you to make the average suburban white male (who btw would be the majority of the swingers) look sensual . Its just not something the male form does well. I need to add that while most men look ridiculous trying to look sensual, most look good looking 'powerful' or confident. Its those sex differences again. My wife didn't respond to me while dating because I was sensual but because I was confident. Your problem was going into swinging assuming that people would be drawn to it for the same reasons you were. I see swinging as a way to satisfy our natural desires for multiple partners while maintaining our desires for a strong pair bond. A majority of people do this by having affairs, or visiting prostitutes, we as swingers have worked out a way that lets us have our cake and eat it to. Its philosophically neutral and explains why swingers are not homogeneous in thought on these issues. Thats not to say I dismiss your observations. I think there will be some changes in swinging, especially as it pertains to male bisexuality. I think men like me are in the minority. I have never contemplated a bisexual encounter, even in periods where I was not having sex for months, not even once did it cross my mind as even a desperate alternative. I think most men are more open to it, or at least less repulsed by it. My thoughts on this even a few years ago was that while most women are more open to bisexuality few men were truly bisexual. This was backed up by some research showing that while bisexual women showed stable relationships and maintained their bisexuality over time, most male bisexuals would gravitate to straight or gay. Likewise while female bisexuals were turned on by both FF and MF porn, most male bisexuals were ONLY turned on by MF or MM porn. Since this fit my personal beliefs I didn't look at it critically enough (sadly something that I see more and more of today with science, where people are finding research to back up their preconceived opinions, not the science forming the opinion). Now I think the problem with that study and some others was the selection process for the males. They were not getting bisexual males as much as homosexuals in denial, and if I recall correctly they found their male subjects primarily in homosexual hang outs and areas. I do expect to see more male bisexuality acceptance as time goes on, as much as I personally do not like it. I think of it akin to the antismoking laws, as a non-smoker with a very sensitive nose they benefit me greatly but I still think the laws themselves overstep government bounds. Likewise I think its unfair that male bisexuality isn't allowed in most clubs even though it benefits me personally. And you are correct that its not 'liberated', by your thoughts, that women are still attached to male via name, or that people feel possessive of their spouses. I don't attribute this to a 'patriarchal' society but to our very natures. I know the common retort is 'well look how much else has changed over time, its not our nature' but that can only go so far. You might see a time where women no longer take the mans last name, but you will never see a time where there is no identifier that people are a pair bonded couple. While it might have been society that decided other races were inferior under law and now no longer say so (and even that has genetic roots with outgroups) you can't legislate sexuality or the dynamics of it. We have tried for generations, and it never works, it only leads to unhappiness for those that don't fit the allowed norm. Boys will be boys and girls will be girls, and no matter how much we might not like some of the aspects, you won't be changing it without something akin to eugenics anytime soon.

since I dont have time for a full answer, I'll keep it short. very little of it reinforces the patriarchal attitude, as in reality the woman in most situations has the power and control of whether a couple meets, play or anything elsewhen it comes to swinging. She generally has full veto power, and the often repeated rhyme of swinging is, "men bring the women to swinging and women bring them back." Therefore it has a greater capacity to support the matriarchial form of relationships, with the woman having primary control and leaving men as equals but w/o the final say in the matter. Political anarchists freedom, if we dont like what you are doing we will burn you out. ie, ELF: Earth Liberation Front, & those who violently protest anything the government does. atheism/free thinking: unwilling to consider the possibility that a God or creator may possibily exist. animal liberation: cattle and horses among other species of animal would probably be extinct, if not for the domestication and care of humanity. Intellectual liberty unless of course, they disagree with the elitist priests of higher education. And of course sexual freedom, where if one is not interested in bi play they are treated as second class sexual beings who need to be reeducated into the mold of the sexual elite. Some would prefer not to think of swinging as poly-monogamy, hetronormative, only in that we have our personal desires, which are normal for each individual to choose, and for those to deride anyone for making such a choice as somewhat less a person for enjoying what pleases them. Sounds like an educational elitists creation of his own form of non-anarchy amongst the swinging population. If you are really anarchist, free thinking, intellectual and sexually liberated,simply have fun with those who desire sex with you, and leave everybody else alone, quit denigrating their free choice, allow them to enjoy their anarchial sexual freedom seperated from your negativity.