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The first thing that comes to my mind is that the situation you put her in (in the hot tub) WAS WRONG! And that may be what is standing out in her head. You asked a male friend of yours who is married, whose wife was present but not in sight line to touch your wife, without his wife's knowledge or consent. That may well be what is pressing in the back of your wife's head. The fact that what you basically did was invite your male friend to cheat on his wife. His wife was not interested in even having sex in the same hot tub. He stopped touching your wife when she returned and could see what is going on. SO now he's lying to his wife (and so are you and your wife). Think about how guilty she might be feeling about what she's just done to her friend. You need to realize that in doing that, you have basically given your wife the idea (whether she consciously realizes it or not) that swinging and cheating are the same thing. Chances are that this is exactly what she sees as so wrong with a mmf scenario.

I'm afraid if you try to encourage her too much it's only going to work against you. And, don't try to set something up. She'll see through that in a heartbeat. Your best hope is that she'll allow something similar to last year's experience to happen again this year. This ball is completely in her court! Your best move is to not move. Smile, tell her you love her often, and see to it that there's absolutely no drama on the trip. Good luck and enjoy it no matter what, if anything at all, happens.

The advise above is right on the money. I think "swinging" is not so much of a destination, but perhaps a journey. There are no real changes when one finally can honestly wear the swinger badge. And the sexual excitement level doesn't necessarily increase when the activities are more swinger-like. Think of all the husbands in the world that envy the sexual openness you two have already experienced. Be an optimist and enjoy what you have right now. Thrill in the excitement of exploring new boundaries together in a way that's comfortable for both of yall. "Swinging" may happen for yall, one of these days, and there's lots of fun between here and there. Stop and smell the roses along the way....

How you get around it isn't the point really. It's how your wife thinks things through. Wrapping her brain about swinging is obviously hard. She is imbued with society's rules that sex is strictly a one-on-one thing, and that a married couple should never ever engage in sex activities outside of marriage. We're raised with this programming. It's drummed into us from an early age. Our society is filled with it. Anyone who ventures outside of it is (insert pejorative terms). She enjoyed the other man playing with her breasts. That's great, and it may have planted seeds in her mind. But all you can do is open doors. You've opened many. But, you've had arguments over it. This is not good. I would encourage you to find a way to discuss swinging without it resulting in an argument, even if it's only slightly about swinging. Also, specifically with regards to the other couple; are they swingers? Does the husband have permission to be playing with your wife? If not, the other wife may not be too pleased to see her husband playing with your wife's breasts. The other wife not being comfortable having sex in front of you and your wife is probably a hint that they are not swingers, and encouraging the other husband to play with your wife is not a good idea. This is a drama bomb waiting to happen. Be mature, be adult. Discuss the September trip with your wife, and see how she feels about having sex in front of the other couple again. Don't layer anything else on it. Just sex with them watching. Don't tell her that you'll ask the other husband to touch her again, in fact quite the opposite. If she's agreeable, discuss it with the other couple. Be upfront about it. Inform them you and your wife would enjoy having sex in front of them again, and see how they feel about it. They don't have to have sex in front of you, just see how they feel. Maybe it can move up to having sex outside of the hot tub, in full view of them. Your wife and my wife probably matched each other in their opinions of swinging ~5 years ago. Even 1 year ago, had I asked my wife she would have probably rejected it right out of hand. But 9 months ago, she verbally expressed it might be nice to have multiple men to massage her entire body at once. Since then, every step of the way has been a very slow progression. We talk frequently about swinging. We've never had an argument about it, but in general in our relationship we actively work to understand our disagreements rather than argue over them. Fast forward to now, and my wife thoroughly enjoys swinging. Just last night we were having sex and she was telling me how much she enjoyed her last swing partner and how much she looks forward to having sex with him again. Very hot! It is possible for your wife to become comfortable with the idea of swinging. But, you can not pressure. Ever. All you can do is open doors. For my wife and I, one of the key things was understanding that the knee-jerk reaction against swinging was based on society's rules. I.e., other people were dictating to us how to live our lives. We do take counsel of other's advice, but we're not going to let them run our lives.

I think cheating is more acceptable because it's more common. More people cheat than swing. People tend to accept that which they do.

Maybe this is not really relevant to this topic but, while we don't have an open relationship, we do often use seperate rooms. This first happened when the four of us were being "active" in the lounge and I went for a pee. I didn't lock or even close the door and I heard a noise behind me as his wife entered the shower. As I finished, she opened the shower door and asked me to wash her back. One thing led to another and after we were both clean, we grabbed a towel to dry ourselves and left the bathroom to rejoin the others. As we approached the bedroom, we could hear them making out and took a peek at them. They were away with the fairy's, so my swing partner grabbed my hand and guided me into the spare bedroom where we enjoyed some privacy until we heard my wife and her husband go for a shower. As they passed, they called for us to join them if we wanted but the shower was only big enough for 3, so we guys took turn cleaning and being cleaned by the two girls. Nothing was said about it. Since then, when we are together, we often split up - even if it's only at opposite ends of the same room. It's good to be able to concentrate all your attention on just one other, sometimes. It's also good to sometimes take a time-out and watch the other 3 together. If only the girls would come round to letting us guys take a shower alone, things would be even better, but that's the problem. The girls enjoy playing together and seem to get a great deal of pleasure from their same-sex action, but we guys haven't even raised the subject because in chatting, both girls have said how "ucky" the idea of male-male sex is. Even going so far as to suggest it would threaten, if not totally destroy a relationship as they consider any kind of male-male sexual intimacy as being outright "gay". We guys have discussed this and it is their attitudes that make us supress it although we think it's unfair that we would be labelled as "gay" whereas the girls are "not gay" just broad-minded and experimental, from their point of view.