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We're floating off topic, but I am in a mid-day musing mood as well... Self-actualization is important. Being yourself is great. But what used to be people having sex is now people watching people have sex like they are monkeys in a zoo (and seriously, quit it folks!). Think of it this way - you are running a race - 100 meter dash. You are good at it and travel to a lot of meets. But before long you have a guy who decides to skip instead of run. Then a guy comes along who wants to partner up and do a wheelbarrow race. Then you have a group of people who really just want to mill about in the middle of the track and eat fudge rounds (yeah, I am jonesin'). You see the problem? So you come to race and you step into what looks like a festival of some sort - and what once was straight forward is now something that you wonder if you really belong in anymore. So while it may be all well and good for people to be themselves, it can really be a proverbial "wet blanket" when people get into "piss play" in the club showers. Swinging is becoming more and more "whatever" - and this is something I've learned from the sages around here - which makes it tougher to start on the common ground of "let's get together and have sex." Complicated for the sake of complicated is silly. What I wouldn't give for someone who could write clear directions when I am putting together a bicycle. I think everyone is complex - it is part of the human condition. We may approach things straight on or ass backwards - but as individuals we are all fairly layered. Simplicity is really just complexity understood This is really a bit of talk show gaga, isn't it? I mean - I get what you're saying. In that whole "motivational poster" sense, fun is a frame of mind. I get it. But... What you are really doing is lifting the phrase out of context and making what is really an unrelated point. Here's why... You can always choose to have fun. You could be stuck on a plane from Pennsylvania filled with Amish men going to an Amish Man convention and work positive thinking like a cow working over his cud. You can pep-talk yourself into enjoying the flight. But the point I was making above is clearly "fun=sex". For a swinger, the real point of swinging is to hook up with like-minded, attractive friends. All the complexity taken out of it - swinging is about sex. And sex is a whole lot more fun than whatever transcendental altered state that you have happened to internally rah-rah'd yourself into for the sake of finding fun in a night that would have been - without the intervention of the Carnegie Institute - a bust. As I understand it, it used to be a lot more direct - from meeting to sex you had a couple of steps. From the perspective of someone from that "era" of swinging, this new world of private messages, followed by instant messaging, followed by talk on the phone, followed by cam'ing, followed by dinner and drinks, followed by drinks, followed by dinner, starts to look like more work than is worth it. And therefore "not as much fun." So while we can certainly follow "the road less traveled" and smile in all circumstances - actually having sex is way more fun than not. Follow me?

This post really summed it up well (no surprise with you). Swinging is not a civil right - and cheaters aren't an oppressed minority.

I understand what you are saying here and can relate completely. Many marriages would stay pretty healthy if one or the other spouse (and men are pretty bad about it as well) didn't withhold sex. I know I am pretty simple: "Feed me, fuck me and rent some DVDs." That is pretty much all that I need to make a go of it. But when one withholds sex, the other spouse is left in a pretty dangerous place. I went through it - I cheated (I had one relationship in college during my marriage), I found escape through porn, and basically lived a life that I am quite ashamed of. A sexless marriage can be soul destroying. Compared to my current marriage where I end up in the closet crying, hiding my oversexed junk with shaking hands as I listen to my wildcat of a wife hunting me like I'm a piece of meat (okay - I make it sound bad but damn - it is pretty fucking awesome!). I know the difference and could never, ever stay in a relationship that wasn't highly sexual (apart from disease, incapacity, etc.). I think withholding sex IS, as you've said, a "breach of contract". That said: Having walked in your moccasins, we still will not play with cheaters. You see - it is not our responsibility to fix someone's dysfunctional marriage. We aren't "suppliers". Swinging is something that in itself can damage a couple should things go wrong. There is enough risk - discovery, emotional slippery slopes, rumor, etc. - without taking on the risk of being a part of a cheating husband's domestic drama. We have never played with a married woman (that we are aware of) without knowing that her husband was on board with it. Do we ask for proof of relationship status? Of course not. Is it possible we've been "duped"? I'd say it is likely actually - a person who lies to a spouse is certainly not above lying to us. Still - we choose to avoid it. Swinging doesn't owe anyone a level playing field - not you, not even us. As Alura mentioned in his post on page 4 (okay - I did read some of them, but mostly because I am practicing sounding out words today) what people do comes down to preference. I'd add that discernment is a MAJOR part of a couple's choice to swing. If we don't protect ourselves, trust me, you aren't going to do it. I do see your perspective - but you have to be able to see ours as well. We face plenty of issues without having our names dragged into court in an eventual divorce proceeding.

My opinion: Cheating is more acceptable than swinging for 1 major reason-People like to feel like a victim. Swingers (for the most part) have accepted certain truths about themselves and have thrown off the sex/guilt paradigm. A non-swinger/open-minded couple would rather have the moral cover than admit that they're incapable/unable/unwilling to meet their partner's needs. Case 1: man cheats on wife. Wife: "He fucked some bitch!" Friends: "That bastard!" Unfaithfulness makes her the victim of a lecherous man. Husband: "She hasn't let me do anything besides kiss her cheek in three years. Except for a 5 minute anniversary fuck. And if I don't come, then that's it for me!" Friends: "Shit, that's fucked up. Once a year? What did she expect you to do, just dry up or explode!?" Unfaithfulness due to lack of consortium makes him the victim of a frigid wife. Case 2: wife cheats on husband Husband: "I can't believe that she'd do that! I do everything for her, work all of those damned 12+ hour days so she doesn't have to do anything!" Friends: "She's a whore, bud!" Wife: "He's always too tired to do anything, and his stamina has dropped as he got older. And it's just in and out, nothing else, ever!" Friends: "How inconsiderate. Just taking his own pleasure and leaving you frustrated. What a bastard, treating you like a blow-up doll!" Sound familiar? No matter how "heinous" the behavior of either party, that person can always convince their friends (old and new) that they're the victim. And by being a victim, they can assuage the society-conditioned guilt of not being faithful. It's not about being faithful, it's about keeping up appearances. By embracing the open relationship/swinging lifestyle, a couple is breaking that chain. They're saying that society is wrong, that it's needs and requirements for harmony aren't sufficient for their needs, and that they can do better. And for a lot of people, bucking standard trends is a major no-no. An "arrangement" may be accepted (he says nothing about having 4 brunette children and 1 redhead, or she ignores a random make-up smear on his shirt if his trip lasted longer than 2 weeks), but open acceptance is intolerable.

Very good point, LFM2. I might add that racism, ageism, appearance-ism, matriarchal unilateralism, homophobia and sexism are all matters of taste, no matter how off-base such tastes might be. Choosing to not play with cheaters has more to do with common sense, in my opinion.

Been reading this post with interest, definitely get's the intellectual juices flowing, however it has gotten a bit deep IMHO. Please allow me to insert my tongue firmly in my cheek (or elsewhere if you prefer) and utter a response that will hopefully lighten the mood. First of all, we dig "blimped out mommies" although we find that term a bit shallow and distasteful. The female half of this couple put on a few pounds after having kids, and was and still is extremely self conscious about it. I've always told her that I accepted full responsibility, after all I was the one that knocked her up. It always illicited a chuckle at least, and lightened the mood. Looking back, I'm glad that it happened the way that it did. If nothing else, it helped me to acquire a high level of appreciation for ladies that perhaps don't fit the magazine definition of "attractive", and since becoming involved in the lifestyle she's discovered that I'm not alone. Having a whole crew of guys telling her she's HOT on a regular basis has definitely helped her self image, and heated things up even more in our bedroom. If you have nothing to offer your beloved but shallow criticism, don't be surprised if she doesn't jump through her ass and hang herself trying to please you. She's not going to be 20 forever, and any man that can't deal with that perhaps has some maturity issues, IMHO. News flash dude, you're probably not what you used to be in the looks department either. My point: Not all sex starved men have only their wives to blame. If you're going to be an insensitive ass, you will reap what you sow. I know, because I've been there. If you don't like the way your wife behaves (or doesn't) in the bedroom, try changing your own backward, caveman ways instead of pointing the finger at only her. Either way, it's not an excuse to cheat, and if you're willing to go to that length it may be an indicator that you don't care about this person's feelings nearly enough to be in a relationship with him/her, and perhaps should consider terminating it, or putting some serious work into it preferably. We've known several couples in this situation, and seldom, in our opinion at least, is it one sided. The second point I'd like to make is one that came up in a discussion we had with several of our swinging friends just a few nights ago. Basically, why would anyone WANT to swing with someone that was cheating, when there are so many opportunities to swing with people who AREN'T? The discussion was regarding vanilla perceptions (mostly incorrect) about swingers in general, and I made a statement that I felt more secure about my wife going out alone to hang out with our swinger friends than I did before we became involved in the lifestyle and she would go out to the bar with her vanilla friends, and how none of my vanilla friends would understand that point of view if they knew about our lifestyle involvement. They would gasp in disbelief, ask me if I was certifiably batshit crazy, and assure me that I was practically BEGGING to have my wife cheat on me letting her hang out with a bunch of swingers (gasp!). Of course, they also wouldn't understand if I told them that my wife has permission to have sex with others, so long as she's honest with me about it . . . and I like details. Basically it boils down to this: If a vanilla guy saw her, liked what he saw, and she was willing (which she wouldn't be), he would take her home and bang her brains out (or disappoint the hell out of her, she's a swinger, she likely has a bit higher standards in the bedroom than most overgrown college kids' Saturday night pickups) and deal with the consequences later never giving a damn that she might have someone at home that may not approve. Swinger guys (and gals) on the other hand, most generally have a far more serious aversion to having pissed off spouses threatening to kick their asses or worse when they discover what's been going on with their significant others, and therefore are much more likely to avoid such situations. No swinger guy that I know would do anything more than give my wife (or anyone else's) a hug or chaste kiss without making damn sure that I knew about it, and was cool with it beforehand. I know for a fact that I wouldn't, I hate drama, why invite it? Especially when I know several smoking hot ladies that would be willing at any time, and are either single or have their husband's full permission? It's a matter of principle for us. Cheating is having sex outside of marriage the wrong way. Swinging is doing it right, with honesty and communication so that no one gets hurt. Hurting people is wrong . . . unless they're into that sort of thing but we don't know anyone that likes to be hurt emotionally.