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I find myself agreeing with Lionheart. I know it's a hard line on the issue, but the risk to the one drinking and the one making the choice to have sex with them is real. In our society it is not likely you will be convicted of rape or sexual assault, you might not be charged. If you are charged, how many tens of thousands of dollars can you afford to hire a lawyer to defend you? If it is someone you know and they called the next and said they couldn't believe you took advantage of them or pushed them further than they were comfortable, how you that affect you? Would you be angry or hurt? I swing as a single female. I swing stone, cold sober every time. If I need or prefer to swing or try something new with liquid courage, it tells me I'm not as comfortable doing what I am doing as I should be. If I am not comfortable with someone or a situation 100% sober, I shouldn't be doing it/them. It doesn't take someone being sloppy, falling down, slurring their speech drunk to be too far gone to give consent. Anything beyond a mild buzz is an automatic "no" from me, and then sometimes even a mild buzz is a no go. I try to watch people before they get to that state. Are they comfortable and enjoying themselves? Are they uptight or wary? What is their demeanor BEFORE they drink? If I don't see them before they start drinking, it's a noes goes. Too many people are at clubs at the urging of their partners and not because they really want to be there. Three drinks in they can still form words and walk a straight line, but their spouses are good at manipulating them in their less inhibited state. I don't want to be a part of that. If you don't desire me while you're sober why should I fuck you/blow you/please you while you're buzzed/drunk? My newbie, single girl two cents.

Chicup; would you use the phrase "I decided to share my wife with this guy" to describe a situation? I highly doubt it, because even if you did decide, so did your wife. It was something you decided together. Someone posting with that kind of language is often betraying their inner thought process. Like Julie said, you can usually get a feeling for whether it was just someones idea of swinger language, or whether it shows an actual issue or not. I agree with you and I think a lot of people feel a similar thing, even if they wouldn't refer to it as ownership, or allowing their spouse to do something. I think it's a pretty healthy thing when it truly goes both ways. The people using the language though most often seem to have an unhealthy perspective on it. I think if you look at the post this was prompted by, the progressive replies from the OP show some serious control tendencies. I think the people picking out specific language there were on track. That said, it's probably wise to try and take a step back and make sure that we're not just nitpicking things.

I have to agree with you here. We are all responsible for our own actions. I am responsible when I choose to drink too much. HOWEVER, if someone else takes advantage of my bad decision then THEY are at fault. I also think this is one of the reasons I wasn't as comfortable trying to swing as a single female as I am as a couple. As a couple, I know I've always got someone there to watch my back. I can't think of a single time that we've both had too much to drink, but there have been a few where one or the other of us has and the sober one has had to step in and end the night early or cut the other off and ensure that they were ok. As a single, you don't really have someone to watch over you. Sure you have friends but they have they are there for their own fun and shouldn't be relied on to make sure that you ok. If I've had too much to drink and someone else takes advantage of that rather than walking away from someone that they know isn't in a position to make an informed decision (.ie. me when I'm drunk) then they have crossed a line. Whether or not it holds up in court, I could care less where the legal line is drawn. It's a moral line and they crossed it.

What follows is, at best, a semi-rational rant. It will probably hurt some feelings and may well get me kicked off these forums by the very people who tried to convince me to stick around... but what the fuck. Three people have messaged me saying come back, saying the disagreements are just semantics, a different point of view. Don't leave. I'm misreading things, they tell me. I'm taking things in the worst possible way. Come back and talk about, Julie herself says. Ok, so I'm back. What do I see, with my eyes seeing things in the worst possible way? I see moderators... not just members, but moderators... blaming women for being raped. If you drink too much, it's your fault you were raped. No one forced you to drink that much after all. You made a bad decision, you regreted it later, but that's not rape. Women should go out with friends, so they don't get raped. Hey, here's an idea... maybe women shouldn't go out at all. They should stay home, never drink. That way they'll be safe. Or maybe... maybe... we men can actually take some responsibility for ourselves. 'Cause the best way to prevent rape isn't for women to stay sober, or to have some watching your back... it's for men to not rape you. It's for our culture to stop acting like men raping women is inevitable, to stop teaching men that men rape. The way to stop rape is acting like it's ok for men to rape. two4youinswva, you wanted to know how you could tell if someone is too drunk to give informed consent. You wanted to know where that line is. The line is, if you're asking that question, you're over it... and if you're not asking that question, you should be. Because the truth of the matter is after one drink, you are impared. I know, the experienced hard drinkers will say... have said, on this very thread... well, maybe I can't drive but I can still make good judgements. Wake up! One drink impares judgement. One. This isn't an opinion. It's a proven fact. Now, society allows a certain level of imparment when it comes to driving a car. Society allows you to have a beer at lunch and then go to a business meeting... not because it's a good idea, but because we're a society of drunks so we expect a certain level of imparment. So, where is the line? How do you know what the line is? How about respect. We talk about a lot on these forums about honesty, truth, openess, communication. It could all be summed up with respect. We respect ourselves. We respect our spouses. We respect our sex partners. So you look at the person, who'se had a few drinks and you ask yourself: am I treating them with respect, or am I taking advantage of the fact that they're a little "loosned up" because I really want to hit that. If you're seriously asking that question, the answer is already that you are at the line. Don't cross it. For the love of whatever it is you hold dear, do not cross it. There, I said my bit. I've given this discussion more time, more energy, more pain and more struggle then I probably should have... especially since I'm guessing I've just pissed you all off so much that most of you aren't listening anymore. Now I'm done. You may have counter arguements, different "points of view" ... but I will be honest with you. I don't give a shit about your point of view on this. There are some issues that strike too close to the bone. For me, this is one. When it come to someone hurting my people, there are no fucking shades of grey.