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We agree that it is different when you play in separate rooms. It feels like you have more freedom to take your time, concentrate on your play partner, and be more open and passionate. Don't get me wrong, we like same-room play a lot, too. But it is a different kind of experience from when you play in separate rooms. If we are offered the chance to choose, we slightly prefer separate-room play. And not for nothing, but we also like giving each other a full report afterwards, which often starts up another round between the Mrs. and me! And in my opinion, you are both swinging and swapping, be it same-room or separate rooms!

First of all, welcome to the board, fellow Canadian! *EDIT: Uh...sorry for the ridiculously long post, btw... Awwww, Argie71, I just want to give you a hug now! You two have been together 20 years (congratulations by the way); she's not looking to replace you. Believe me. Or better yet, ask her, and when she echoes the same sentiment, believe her! You're right, these feelings are irrational, and that's probably embarrassing for someone who identifies (like so many of us) as a rational person. Get used to it. Your heart doesn't ask permission to feel the way it does...it just does. What you are experiencing is actually a beautiful thing if you are willing to embrace it. It is the painful exposure of your vulnerability, and if you want to know what women want, it is a partner who is strong enough to allow himself to be vulnerable with her. This is the part where you tell her "This just peeled the skin off my chest, and here is my heart raw and open. You have a knife in your hand. You can heal me or kill me. Please don't abuse my trust." I commend you on your courage and desire to make your wife happy, but please be careful that you do not neglect your own emotional needs. "No" doesn't have to mean no forever; it just means no for now, until you are able to process things and assimilate these new ideas and emotions. In the meantime, you just need to ask your wife for time and space to feel fully comfortable with things. Baby steps. Start out by coming to terms with your wife being attracted to other men, a huge step in itself. Is she yours? Is she really? This is probably the thing that demarcates the line between swinger and vanilla: ownership. Territory. The thing is, I don't own Mr. intuition. I don't even want to own him. I don't want a domesticated pet on a leash. I want him to be the feral animal he was when I met him. I want him untamed, unchanged, free to come and go as he pleases...and I want him to be here because - despite all the places he could be, and all the women he could have - he chooses me. The less domesticated he is, the more that choice means to me. Does this make any sense? I don't feel jealous or angry with him for being attracted to other women, because I realize a few things about that: 1) His attraction to other women does not make me less attractive...to him, or to other men. 2) His attraction does not make him love or respect me any less. I know this because I, too, am attracted to others, and my feelings for him do not change at all. 3) He means no harm or disrespect by his attraction to others. Humans are just fancy, upright, bipedal animals. Our bodies are designed to have physical attraction to potential mates with suitable genetic matches. We call it chemistry, or having a "type". It is normal, natural and healthy. We tell ourselves that if we love someone enough, the attraction to others goes away. That is bullshit. We can brainwash ourselves into behaving that way, but it requires a great deal of effort, and you're constantly working uphill. And if you fuck up and slip, you find yourself all wound up under that boulder you've been pushing up the hill, wishing and wanting another person's body more than you need to...all because you've made it a forbidden taboo. This is why cheating is such a problem in our society; we're working against human nature instead of lovingly accommodating something that is perfectly natural, and might I add, involuntary. Still wanting to hug you. When your wife reads this, she will want to hug you, too. Again, this is a beautiful thing. Sometimes you don't get the answers you want to hear; the truth is often painful, and so you should be prepared to learn some things about yourself and one another that might make you really uncomfortable. But...that's the deal. Don't go down this road unless you're ready for the truth, whatever that may be. The good news is, 99 times out of 100, you get to watch your fears and insecurities evaporate like smoke when your spouse tells you what's really going on in his or her head/heart. Her responses may vary somewhat, but if my husband expressed these concerns to me, I would answer them like this: What if she likes the other guy better, and then the only form of sex that we will ever have will be with someone else? Not going to happen. The other guy might be hung like a horse and give me a mind-blowing orgasm...but so what? He's not you. No one else is you, and you are "home". Nothing else is worth losing this bond with you, and right now, I love you so much for giving me the freedom to be myself, it's all I can think of. Not "Oh my God this guy is so much better than my husband.", but "Oh my God, I am the fucking luckiest woman in the goddamned WORLD! I get to fuck what's-his-name here AND I get to keep the most amazing man on the fucking planet as my husband!! He ROCKS!" Will she ever enjoy having sex with me alone again or will she do it out of kindness, always secretly comparing me with the other guy? What I'd be thinking after a MFM: I wonder if he thinks any less of me now, now that he's seen me turned on by someone else? Does he hate me? Does he think I'm a whore? If he did, then I am ashamed, and so sorry for hurting him, even though I didn't mean to. Honestly, "reclamation" sex is some of the hottest, most amazing sex we've had. Our friends are barely out of the driveway and we're tearing each other's clothes off. Effects can last a week or two. What if I say no to her desire to do this MFM and she resents it, and this frustration hurts our relationship?; Okay, this one is where your mileage may vary. You need to talk this out before you try anything. Explain that you don't want anything to damage your relationship, so can she gauge how badly she wants this? Will she still love me after realizing that, perhaps, the sex life we have had so far might not have been so good for her after all? Again, not going to happen. Don't mistake familiarity with "bad". When she's done with all the excitement and novelty of exploring a new body, she's going to come "home" to you. Would you rather sleep in a hotel for the rest of your life? Or can you appreciate how good it feels to sleep in your own bed after being away? Feelings aren't just for teenagers. Not a big deal, everybody has them. If you want to get involved in swinging, you're going to have them, and you need to address them...which is exactly what you're doing. So well done. I went through this, too. When I was very young and pregnant, and our marriage was quite new, I noticed my husband's stash of porn and I FREAKED OUT. Is this what he wanted??? How the fuck was I supposed to compete with these airbrushed hairless, tanned, fat-free twats with six-pack abs, perfect tits and asses, and legs that went on for days? His answer was that I didn't need to compete with them, because they can't even start to compete with me. Okay, so they have perfect bodies and faces and hair and whatnot, but they had to be physically beautiful because it was the only thing they had going for them. He had no interest in them otherwise. I'm his WIFE, his angel, his everything. How can they compete with me? Argie71, please don't be too hard on yourself. You obviously love her very much, and want only for her happiness. Just remember you don't need to set yourself on fire to keep another person warm. I hope that when your wife reads this, she'll be as touched by it as I was. I hope it prompts many deep, meaningful conversations...punctuated with a lot of really amazing lovemaking. You're about to discover how much she loves you.

My guess is that he had a bet on the game with another guy who was at the club. The winner got to have a threesome with both wives.

How well timed since we were just having this very conversation last night. For us, we have found there to be a very definite difference between same and separate rooms, and at this point in our swinging journey we have found that, for us, separate room seems to have led to each of our "best" experiences. That's not to say that same room was bad, but it seemed as though we were better able to focus on our partners in separate rooms. Mrs. E can be quite the loud one, so often I (and even my partner) would often find ourselves stopping to see what was being done on the other side! lol... Like others have said, we always review and are quite open about our separate room experiences when they are over, and it doesn't feel any less shared an experience when compared to the same room experience. There is definitely a sense of a deeper level of "focus" between us and our partners, which in turn led to a more intimate experience for us. In some cases there was also a marked difference between how expressive the other person was...almost night and day! That's not to say they were holding back, or not being fully involved...it just seemed easier to be expressive in the separate setting. Of course this is only our experience, and I think like anything else in swinging it's what you both enjoy that matters.

Same-room or separate-room, it's swing just the same. For many people, separate-room play seemed to be something into which the graduated after a time of same-room. But my wife and I took the hands of our partners and went off to different rooms right from our start. So much easier to focus

We have done both and we both prefer separate. A nice way to compromise is to start together...for us it has nothing to do with jealousy or "doing our own thing" it is exactly like what intution897 says...its just a lot and hard to connect or concentrate on one thing...I feel more uninhibited alone...but we still feel like we are swinging and for days we excitedly discuss the details, sights, sounds, positions etc...we hold nothing back, it just has seemed to go better for us this way. Not opposed to same but it has been better separate for us.

This was our rule, too. I work at a university, so it's a pretty liberal environment. If anyone raised a stink about me being a swinger, all I'd need to do is start whining about how I'm being picked on because my organization doesn't "embrace inclusivity" for sexual diversity. Mr. intuition's situation is a little different, however. It's a privately owned company and "family oriented". I don't know if they have a morality clause, but even if they couldn't legally fire him for being a swinger, they find some other way to get rid of him. He's in a leadership position, so we do need to be very aware of appearances. Now, that said, I really don't give a flying fuck if people did find out. We're not doing anything wrong, regardless of their opinion of it. The only reason we're not "out" (other than to keep our jobs), is because we don't feel it's polite to make the people around us uncomfortable with knowing our business. There are a lot of folks in our immediate circle that would have a hard time coming to terms with it when they don't even need to. It's none of their business, it doesn't affect them, and it doesn't change who we are as they've come to know us. All it does is create an unnecessary distraction. We used to be really paranoid about running into someone we know, but not so much anymore. As mentioned, they're swingers, too, so...whatever. I remember one night Mr. intuition and I were out at a favourite watering hole, having some nachos and a drink, and people watching. The next table over, Mr. intuition noticed a woman he worked with out with her husband. She didn't see him right away. Their "friends" came by and sat down at the table and it was completely obvious from their conversation that it was a meet and greet. Two couples who were complete strangers trying to get to know one another. It was after they stood up and she noticed Mr. intuition and I sitting at the next booth that she froze with a deer in the headlights look. Mr. intuition had to hide his amusement and waved at her. The next day at work she (unnecessarily) came up to him with a big long explanation of what they were doing there that night. You were out with some friends; why the big, long explanation? It's not like we caught you in the middle of fucking them on the table. We've discovered that much of our swinging activity mimics normal vanilla social interactions, so we just hide in plain sight. Where it crosses the line from vanilla to swinger, we just try to be discrete about it.

Also, a word to the wise. Crowded, noisy places are bad choices for a first meet and greet. I did one in a local bar during happy hour, and it went poorly, because we couldn't really talk a lot, without shouting. The zoo was kind of weird, but it turned out great. We walked in the sunshine, laughed at the animals and tourists, and were able to converse with little or no interference.

This is us, too. I don't mind everyone being in the same room, or even sharing the same bed, but I tend to be easily overstimulated. For example, Mr. intuition likes to fall asleep to the "gentle droning" of the television, but I can't sleep if it's on. The talking never turns to white noise for me; my brain hears all the conversation and can't shut down enough to sleep. When you've got four people on a bed, with hands and feet and boobs and penises going everywhere...that's a lot of stimulation and too much for me to take in. We had talked about this, too. Mr. intuition agreed that he, too, liked the privacy of separate rooms. It's not that you're hiding anything; we'll give whatever details the other asks for, but I do like 1:1 sex the best. You can concentrate on that one unique individual that you're with, which feels most natural to me. Then again, for me, it's not all about the sex or the orgasm; it's about sensually experiencing this other human being, getting to know them, in the biblical sense, with all five of your senses. In a group, it does feel rushed/pressured somewhat. And I don't feel the need to be included in everything he does. I am okay with the idea that that is "his" experience, and this is "mine". I don't need to be right on top of him to feel that he still loves me, values me, prefers me. We haven't really discussed whether separate play is right for us yet, but it will probably come up. It begs the question, is it still even swinging? Is it still about "us"?

Just so I am clear here, you have an fwb that you told you had feelings for, she didn't reciprocate. Then she went dark on you. You messaged her once or twice a day for two weeks with no response. Then you messaged an apology for bugging her. I am sorry you are broken hearted, but I don't think you are ever going to see her again. I mean reverse this and see how it fits. Wouldn't you go dark? Time to spend some time on something else entirely to clear you mind.

He probably had a huge bet riding on the game. But my question...why did they spend the time, money and energy to go to a club? What a waste.

My experience is limited, but I've played with people who whoop and holler like it's a rodeo, and with some who seem to think we were in a public library. I suggest that you give it time. I once was with a couple who didn't say much and certainly were not vocal during the play time. A couple of days later, they texted me asking for a rematch, saying that I drove both of them crazy, and was the best they had ever had. HUH? I almost checked my calendar to see if it was the same couple. Sure enough, the next time, it was more of the same. They simply were not vocal people. By the same token, I've been with a lady who was so loud that she attracted all of the alley cats in Indianapolis. It's a big, old, world out there, with plenty of variations.

I think it's a factor...tightness vs looseness. I am not exactly sure what is too tight and too loose. I have had tighter ones and certainly really loose ones. The two women that I distinctly remember being really loose have amazing sexual reactions, and it was great. I mean I've never had too tight or too loose?!?! Personality, body type, enthusiasm all play a major role in an unforgettable experience. If you want me to blow my load while fucking, smile at me, I love that!!

Wow Intuition. That was an amazing post and fabulous advice. Argie I would add only one thing to all the has already been said. Take baby steps. Start with small things so that you can ease your mind into it. If you can become comfortable with her desire for other men, at increasing levels, then hopefully you can develop compersion. In our beginning my wife's stomach turned at the thought of me paying attention to another. But I was thrilled seeing her feel like a queen when some gorgeous man paid her attention. Eventually, with much of what Intuition suggests, she also developed compersion. Now when and if we share each other it is a thrill and enormous turn-on for both of us. Imagine asking her to interact with another man, for your benefit. I have. Compersion is a wonderful thing.

Ok Lionheart, I only have what you are saying to go on... I don't know you guys or your situational specifics, but I have a friend who is... well, she's needy when it comes to the guys she dates. She latches on and drives them away. And from what you're sharing with us, there are some similarities (obviously not the same, you're nowhere near her level of intensity). Please understand, this isn't a judgement on your feelings or behaviors. I hate to hear that you're in such mental anguish over this. Based on this, I think you need to back off. Messaging her one to two times daily without receiving a response is... a lot. She's in her 20's. She's got other things going on, and she flat out told you she doesn't love you. You mentioned in another thread that you were envious of her spending time with other people. The more you try to hold on, the more she'll back away. For your own sanity (and health), I think you need to take a deep breath, back away, and start working on something you enjoy. concentrate on other things to help relieve your above mentioned stress. Yes, your reaction to this situation may be stress-based, but she doesn't know that. To her, this cool guy that she cares a lot about has suddenly gotten very clingy. So give her some space, maybe take your wife out, maybe go play with other people. Let her come back to you when things with her have settled down. It could very well just be a case of she's crazy busy and hasn't had a chance to check her messages, but... two weeks without logging into Facebook seems like a lot, even with a family crisis. It could be that she just doesn't have time to be with you and she feels bad telling you that. Who knows? But I'd definitely take a hiatus on the messaging. You left the ball in her court. The good news is, you have a very supportive and awesome wife who, I'm sure, will help take your mind off of it while you wait for the ball to come back to you I hope this didn't come off as mean. That isn't my intention. I like you, you seem like a cool guy, but you're obviously feeling more in this relationship, and I hate to see you get hurt.

Jews do not recognize Jesus as their savior. Baptists do not recognize each other at a swingers' club.

I once met a couple who had driven two hours to go to a club far from home, so they wouldn't be recognized. The first people they saw when the arrived were a couple they knew from home and had definitely not expected to meet at a swingers club. The thing about meeting people you know while swinging is - guess what - they're swinging too. So they have just the same concerns about being "outed" as you do.

I'm speculating wildly but it sounds to me like what you were watching wasn't sex, it was performance art. Having sex in public isn't all that easy. Most people get self-conscious and that probably accounts for some of what you saw, or didn't see. They might have been trying to put on a show without knowing how or feeling comfortable enough to really do it well.

I try to add a little variety so I get waxed during summer and warmer months and do some maintenance with the Norelco Bodygroom. The problem with waxing is I have to let it grow out some before getting waxed again, so the Norelco is good if there is a party and I am not quite ready for another wax. I let it grow out au natural during winter. Mr. A shaves it all using the Norelco Bodygroom. I really like the Norelco too because it's easy to use and no red bumps and no itchiness afterwards. It's not as close as shaving, but for me, it works since I use it in between waxing sessions.

In this scenario, it sounds like no one did.

Why would any club manager have a television in any room that could even be tuned to a basketball game? I thinks sports bars should have agreements with swing clubs. The swing clubs will not allow sports channels; the sports bars will not allow sex channels.

Or they aren't really sure what they are doing there. Maybe they will figure it out, maybe they won't.

Because he doesn't appreciate her, value her, or consider her in any way. What a putz.