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We had "that conversation" with our Best Friends a few years ago -- the "What do y'all feel about swinging?" one. This was the couple whom we wished we could play with. And it came up because there was a dust-up at a nearby nightclub that catered to Meet-n-greets, resulting in some LE-intervention that made the news, followed by an op-ed piece in the paper about the 'hidden swingers' in town. So I (Mr. SJB) took the lead on answering. I said something like "We've talked about it. I think most couples do -- and now that it's in the news, well -- of course we talked." Or something like that -- it's been a few years. "Or words to that effect," I guess. I went on: "we did some reading, and it seems fairly mainstream, now. Sexuality is no longer the taboo topic it once was. And we learned there's soft-swap, full-swap, and all kinds in-between." I deflected it on them, asking "You're not asking us to swap with you two, are you?" And of course they denied it. A little too strongly, I think. Maybe they were feeling us out. One can hope, right? I went on: "We even learned about who you should swing with. People you get along with, who share your interests and values," (Obviously paraphrasing here, but I was describing our feelings for those two back to them) "You should look for playmates on-line or at clubs, because if things go sour, you don't want to risk a good friendship." And then I dropped the bombshell: "But would we actually consider swapping with another couple? Well, if we didn't love you and so much, you two would be the first to know." Some silence. And then the topic was changed. But it didn't negatively affect our friendship. In fact, I think we all became a little more flirtatious in our interactions when it was just the four of us -- but we never had any playtime with them, and it never came up again (although we were a bit more open about sex in our conversations -- a little more relaxed about it). I believe they took the hint that we could and would play with others, and possibly with them if the situation presented itself; and we got the unsaid feeling that they thought the same. But it was the 'we don't want to risk our friendship'-thing that ended the conversation. And they have always been 'that couple' we fantasize about, and we do love them dearly. But the subject has been broached. And it has been laid to rest.

The website, swingerzonecentral is a smaller site and is largely, IN and OH. There are 150,000 profiles, which include singles. There is a group on the site, called Indiana Swingers that has 2700 members, it was created in 2008, and has had no activity. In this area of the country I believe we are probably closer to 1-2%

With all respect, I have to disagree with this estimation. I'm from Indiana. If your figure is correct, that means that throughout all of Indiana, there are 246 married people who are swingers. I've seen more than half that number on one night at a swingers club. Searching SLS, I rapidly exceed that number in a local search, not even covering the entire state...and that's just sls and those that have been there in the last month. It's very hard to put a figure on it, but swinging is a multimillion dollar business nationwide, with conventions sometimes attracting near a thousand couples. I'd say a more realistic figure is in the .1% to 1% range. That's a guess too, but such a range would certainly allow for the numbers I see on SLS and at swingers clubs.

Define 'normal'. Seriously. A threesome is unusual in our society, but polygamous marriages are common in other societies. What is 'normal' has no proper definition. It doesn't matter what we think. What is normal isn't really important anyway. If, ultimately, you and your wife become swingers, polyamorous, what have you, that is your 'normal', and no one else gets to define it for you. I would encourage you not to live in a world that is defined by what OTHERS think is normal. If you do, you're permanently living in a cage, one defined by others. That's not a pathway to happiness. At first, it seemed not normal to be engaging in non-monogamy. Over time, this has faded, and non-monogamy is now normal for my wife and I. Taboo? Meh. Sure, in our society it's probably considered taboo. So what! If society doesn't know about it, so what? As an aside, and perhaps informative, I've seen various things that have shown that people are far more upset about the idea of a couple being non-monogamous with permission than they are about the idea of one or both spouses cheating. Cheating is more 'normal', less 'taboo' than swinging. Let's see, cheating is harmful, evil, destructive, duplicitous...any number of negative terms. Swinging is...loving, caring, sharing, enjoying. Hrmm...what is taboo again? Don't believe what society tells you. Believe what you tell each other. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with it. If a guy watches porn where a man and a woman are having sex, is the watching guy not straight because of that? It's no different if a guy is watching his wife have sex with a man. Doesn't make him less straight. As to why the thought is enjoyable? Oh wow. I've spent the past nine years trying to figure that out. I can't tell you. All I know is despite upbringing, social programming, and prior monogamous experiences throughout my life, watching my wife have sex is incredibly erotic. Seeing her respond to a man inside of her is absolutely exquisite. Hell, just TYPING about it gets me horny, and we've been doing this for nine years now! For my wife's part, she loves being the center of two men's sexual attention. She loves having sex and giving oral sex at the same time. It's her favorite thing. She loves having us play tag team with her, with me having sex with her, then the other guy for a while, then me, then the other guy... it's wonderful for her. Don't expect there to be an explanation, per se, as to why. If it is something that both of you are turned on by, it's something that may never be adequately 'explained'. Just revel in it. See answer above. It's a very different experience, and nothing in monogamous 1:1 sex can prepare you for it. MFM sex can't hold a candle to 1:1 sex. 1:1 sex can't hold a candle to MFM sex. They are different. There are many different experiences you can have in an MFM you could never have in 1:1 sex. I love kissing my wife passionately as another man enters her for the first time. My wife loves having both of her breasts kissed at the same time by the two of us. As mentioned, my wife likes having sex and giving oral sex at the same time. My wife enjoys laying with her back against me while I hold her, caress her, kiss her...while another man is having sex with her. As mentioned, she loves the tag team. With one (long term) partner, she goes bareback, and loves having both of us cum in her. She loves me watching her. When we first started doing this, she always wanted me interacting with her, holding her, etc. She still loves that but now she also really enjoys me just sitting back, maybe off the bed, and just watching her. Some inner voyeur or something. Some of the most intensely aroused moments in her life have been while engaged in an MFM. Every couple I've heard talk of it have had a big increase in their 1:1 sexual activity both before their first time and after their first time doing something in swinging. It is a very, very intense sexual stimulant. If you stay doing it, some of that wears off...but at least for my wife and I, never completely. Awkward? Maybe. Some guys have a hard time their first experience, with feeling odd being sexual in front of another man. Their erections might not be totally cooperative. I had this problem our first time. I really enjoyed the lady in question. She was fantastic! We really clicked, and had a lot of fun playing...but mr. happy wasn't completely cooperative. There was one other time where it was a problem, but that had more to do with the woman than awkwardness. She just wasn't my type in bed. With time, being sexual with other people around becomes 'normal'. See question 1... Oh hell yes, women fantasize about it too. In fact, there's a saying that women are really the ones that run swinging. If you think about it, this makes total sense. If guys were really running the show, few women would go along with it! Women are just as much into swinging as men are, and fantasize about it just as much. My wife doesn't participate in this forum, though we frequently talk about things on this forum. She's just not a computer type However, I'll offer this; send me a private message, and we can exchange phone numbers. My wife would be very happy to talk to your wife and share her experiences. We've done this before, to the great relief of couples who got to talk to actual, real, live swingers Seriously, it can be a great benefit, even if you never go down this path. I can say this; my wife had considerable trepidation before we got into swinging. Before I met my wife, I'd been involved for a short time with a woman who was married, and playing with permission. I was friends with both of them, and knew everything was on the up and up. I would not have had sex with her if she had been cheating on her husband. When my wife and I were dating, this came up. She was very upset about the idea, said it didn't matter if she was playing with permission, she was still cheating on her husband. I contradicted that, and we just left it as agree to disagree. Prior to nine years ago, I would have bet a zillion dollars that my wife would never...ever...ever...consider getting into swinging. It just wasn't going to happen. I didn't ask for it. I didn't really even consider it. I would have died a gloriously happy man if my wife and I remained monogamous, as I've been fortunate to find the perfect woman. Then one day...my wife said that one way in which having two men would be nice is by having two men massage her at the same time (she's addicted to massage). That started the discussion, and oodles of hours of discussion, research, question asking here, and talking over things over and over again, ...six months later we found ourselves playing with another couple. It was a very nice experience. We had our first MFM a few months after that, and enjoyed it. It wasn't perfect, but it was nice. A couple of weeks after that, we had an MMFM (yes, 3:1!) and one of the other guys was very good. My wife was intensely aroused, and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. She absolutely loved having sex with this particular guy. On the way home, she was all giddy in the car and said "Ok, NOW I'm a swinger!" Not that I was ever trying to 'sell it' to her, but she was absolutely sold. We've had many experiences since then, most of them MFMs. Only one, with another couple not an MFM, has been negative. See my answer to Q5 above My wife used to get butterflies before having sex with a new sex partner in swinging. She was nervous. That's gone away now. Now, it's normal, fun, enjoyable, and very fulfilling. The first few years we got into swinging, we went to a number of swinger clubs. We don't do that really now, though we're not averse to it. Now, we're into longer term arrangements, but certainly not opposed to more traditional swinging. My wife has been seeing her current lover now for about two years. This is our 'normal'. It's not taboo to us, but we know it would be to (most of; 2 know) our friends, family and employers. The sexual thrill of it all has never completely worn off. My wife still fantasizes about partners. Here's an idea I've seen offered before, to give your wife a tiny taste of what it might be like. While in bed with your wife, have her give you head while you use a nice penis shaped dildo on her. Encourage her to actively fantasize that the dildo is another man. Let her close her eyes and enjoy the thought, the fantasy, the possibility. Don't be surprised if she becomes wildly turned on, and finds it intensely erotic No, this isn't a way to 'convince' her and shouldn't be thought of that way. It's just a way to 'window shop', so to speak, to see what it might be like. You can ask as many questions as you like We will never turn you away. the people on this forum were very helpful to us when we first got into swinging, and over the years I've seen it be helpful to lots of other couples. Also, I'd like to point out that there are plenty of us here, myself included, who will tell you if you're barking up the wrong tree, headed in the wrong direction, whether red flags are going up, or even if we think you're just not compatible with swinging. Not everybody is. I would say that you should not be surprised if your wife changes her mind back and forth many times. She of course has the right to change her mind, even in the act of having sex. It's ok. There's no contract here, no obligation. Your wife seems very receptive to the idea, and that's a good first step. It's just a first step. You have a journey in front of you, one the two of you need to take hand in hand, whether it leads to swinging or not. Never try to rush her, just open doors. Be patient. One day passing is nothing. I know of some couples that have taken more than ten years to get to the point of inviting others into their bed. As mentioned, it took us six months. Your excitement about the possible fulfillment of this fantasy may be driving you too hard. Step back, relax, take a breath. Understand; sex is a very different thing for women than it is for men. For a woman, she is bringing a man physically into her body, inside of her. Most women do not easily separate sex from love, whereas most men have an easier time of that. I think because of this it takes more women more time to adapt to this thought than men. Not every woman is the same of course, and stereotypes fail on first contact with reality. For her part, she shouldn't agree to have sex with another man only because you have this fantasy. My wife is very much motivated by my desire for her to have sex with others, but it is not by any means the only motivation, or even the prime motivation. It's part of the whole picture. She loves how much I love it, and loves it more because I love it, but she would love it anyway even if I didn't love it (but still approved). Also, and I can't stress this enough, if you can't talk about this out of the bedroom while doing mundane normal day to day stuff, it's possible this is _only_ a fantasy, and might not be anything more. Even if that's all it is, just a fantasy, stop being disgusted by it. It is not disgusting at all, even if you act on it. What is disgusting is determined only by you and your wife. Some people find BDSM disgusting. Some think oral sex is disgusting. Some think having sex with the lights on is disgusting. Some think porn is disgusting. Don't live your life by other people's measures of what is "acceptable". Live it by _your_ measures and that of your wife's. Her having sex with another man isn't disgusting, nor is your wanting her to do so. My wife just said yesterday; when she is having sex with another man it is an act of love on my part, and on her part. It's true. By the way, my wife just stopped by and said "what is disgusting is cheating!" Feel free to take us up on the offer to talk on the phone. We are in earnest.

A black ring story... We were at Desire a couple of months ago. January was called "International Swingers Month" by Desire as a marketing theme. We went knowing there is always a mix there and depending upon the crowd, could be more swingers than not. Given the marketing for the month, we anticipated the resort to be filled more with swingers. We were in the pool on the second day chatting with a nice couple and noticed they both had black rings on their right hands so we started chatting swinger topics. At some point, she said they do not swing so I had to ask about the black rings. They had no idea what that meant, just saw some others at one time and liked them. The next day she came down to the pool with a white ring on the right hand. They thanked us for enlightening them but it did open some doors for discussion the rest of the week and they are talking about exploring some. So you can never tell...

Another thought. Does she want to swing, also and this is just an ultimate fantasy? If you decide to swing and develop a network of friends, you could definitely find a couple or a group willing to do this as a favor or a gift as a one time thing. I've participated in "fantasy parties" for close friends and they were awesome. It takes a few years to find good friends like this, but eventually, if you swing and are active in your community, you will.

Hours without reciprocation is not practical in swinging. At a club you don't have that kind of time. With a couple in a hotel room or at home, what are you and the other wife going to do? I have never talked to a single guy who would be interested in playing without sex. Does she want to be restrained? I have seen bdsm scenes where the woman is tied up and teased for a period of time (probably about a half hour). The bdsm community might be a good place to look. Sometimes, penetrative sex is not even allowed in their play spaces. You might also find a submissive man who would be happy to serve her in whatever way she demands without reciprocation.

We were at a club where my hubby had just had sex with one of my Bi girlfriends. the funny thing is that we discovered that we both were in an adult film 10 years earlier seen together in an oil orgy scene. It was fate.

My hubby and I are from Las Vegas, and here, less is more, especially in the summer months. I like to wear as little as possible, mostly a nice short and low cut dress to show off my tanned tits, of course no underwear. I like my man to also wear as little as possible, usually an sexy shirt, commando slacks or shorts (yes, it is ok here), and shoes no socks. We end up ditching our clothes anyway with others we meet, plus, being nudists, we never wear clothes when home. laura Dave and Laura vegasnudecouple

Well, there's soft swap couples that are, to varying degrees, willing to do most things except actual sex. Still, if she's just wanting herself to be pleasured, but not reciprocate in anyway...that might be difficult.

M and b, the advice you are getting is spot on. There really isn't anyway to know. You just can't know without being direct in some way, whether it be asking or by letting them know you are and seeing how they respond. A couple of quick stories... A very close family friend of ours had spent many years around us, over for dinner many times, lots of outings together around town, at the lake, etc. Our kids love him, and he's always been an honorary uncle to them. We'd been swingers for years, but he didn't know. He'd been dating a very nice young lady for a while, and confided in us that they were experimenting with opening up their relationship to others. He was excited, concerned, uncertain, etc. He told us things that were, frankly, the wrong way to about doing things. My wife and I discussed it in private, and we made a choice to tell him. We did so by way of giving him our copy of a book about swinging as a Christmas present. After the kids had gone to bed, we gave it to him. He opened it and the look on his face was priceless. He looked at me, looked at my wife and said "YOU? YOU TWO? NO WAY!" Much laughter ensued. He had not the slightest inkling we were swingers. The lesson; you've no idea about a couple. Two; I have a very close friend ("Jane") of mine from college, whom I dated for years in college. Saying we're very close doesn't describe it. We are very intimately connected to each other. I don't mean that on a physical level. We haven't been sexual for more than 20 years now. My wife knew about Jane early on, and I've always kept my wife in the loop about Jane as I always do about anything. My wife is perfectly accepting of Jane being this close to me. After a few years of swinging and having some long term partners, my wife has become comfortable with and suggested the possibility of reigniting things on a sexual level with Jane. I tried feeling Jane out over about two years of conversation, texting, in-person, etc. I was intentionally seed planting thoughts. I knew the sage advice from here; make friends of swingers, not swingers of friends. But, I thought just maybe with Jane there was a way. Over time, sexual banter developed between Jane and I, and at times it got fairly...shall we say, "warm". There came a time when it seemed appropriate to tell Jane that we could make love again, and my wife would be happy about it. In the couple of days leading up to telling her, all the signs were there. This was going to go ok. Still, I was uncertain. I finally did tell Jane, and her response was polar opposite to what the signals had all told me. This, despite being so close to Jane that I can instantly tell what she is feeling just by hearing a single sound from her, despite being very connected to her, despite being very soulfully intimate with her. I read her wrong. Lesson; it doesn't matter how well you know a person. You can't know unless you ask them or they tell you. There is jewelry out there that you can wear to demonstrate you are a swinger. There are necklaces and ankle bracelets for women that have multiple male and female signs on them, indicating multiple partners, and similar ones with "MFM" and "MFFM", etc. There are pieces that have "HW" on them ("hot wife"). There are similar bracelets for men and women. Those that are swingers will immediately recognize them, even if they haven't seen them before. You could get such jewelry and see how people respond. Put a search in for "swinger jewelry". You'll find something you like.

After reading this thread, I went thru the list of our lovers over the years. I can't think of a single one I'd want living next door to me. Not that there are arch enemies out there, just relationships that came and went. I think neighbors are simply too close for this. SO much that can go wrong.

We've had this question and have played the "are they, aren't they and we hope not" game. We interact with other couples for our business in vanilla contexts, and recently the wife of the couple mentioned they had booked a vacation at resort for later this summer. We asked which one, and she kind of said "Maya or something like that, I'm not real sure." This is a couple that we have often thought fit that "chances are good profile". We are thinking that she knew exactly what resort ( Maya, aka Desire Mexico), but we guess she could also be one who lets the other partner take care of such things and just goes along. Buuut, we think she knew exactly and was trying to cover herself.

Well, there isn't a foolproof way to spot a swinger in the vanilla world, other than them saying "We swing". There are signs that might indicate they are either swingers or are open to the possibility. Even then it isn't a guarantee. Because of this we have made it a habit of finding swingers in the swinging community. It's A LOT easier. I will say this: "Are They Swingers" can be a fun game to play while out in the real world.