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News from the vanilla world--clergy assaulting children, a celebrity sexual predator who drugged dozens of women for sex, a peace officer who turns out to be a serial killer of women, a world "leader" who thinks it's just fine to "grab pussies". No news from the swinger world, where respect is intrinsic and consent is foundational to intimacy. There is something wrong with social norms that tolerate the enumerated vanilla behaviors and yet assert the lifestyle to be "sinful".

I see no problem with cuddling and enjoying the person you have just been with intimately. I think I would feel used if after his orgasm he got up and left. Then again I enjoy spending the night with a swap rather than a group sex party. My enjoyment is the whole night and not a wham bam screw. I realize everyone has their own rules. Our rules are "have fun". Kissing to me is a must. The afterplay is as important as the foreplay. Cuddling on my partners chest, even falling asleep in his arms and waking for more intimacy makes for a wonderful night. For me a night with a man is not much different than a night with my husband. The rule my husband and I have is that we don't forget who we are going home with. We both know it is sex and intimacy, not love, but making love is fine. Just so people don't jump on my response negatively, our marriage is as strong as it has ever been and we have been doing this now for a few years. We do discuss our nights in detail after. I only hope that my husband treats the other wife as well as he treats me and that she can enjoy the sex as much as I do the other 364 nights, or so, of the year.

The OP didn't sound to me like a comparison of swingers vs predators vs vanilla lifestyle. It sounded like a commentary on the hypocrisy of the societal acceptance of deviant behaviors that harm innocent people while condemning behaviors that build love, trust, openness and honesty in relationships within a group of people that are preying on no one, where the cardinal rule is that No means No. Sexual deviants are getting publicity and through that publicity they gain a certain amount of acceptance. The ACLU recently represented NAMBLA in a wrongful death suit. NAMBLA members would bristle at even being considered sexual deviants and, it appears, there are those in the mainstream who would defend that position. Hollywood can't even make a decent, honest movie about the lifestyle. Even Playboy TV cancelled Swing in favor of more salacious programming that is sometimes full of negativity and drama.

Confidence. We both are drastically more confident in ourselves. This has spilled over into our vanilla life as well and I am glad for the personal growth. Also, we can talk about anything now. Before the ls, we still hadn't talked about fantasies that were outside the norm in any way for fear of judgement. Now we talk about anything and everything.

We have learned to not be jealous and that we can still enjoy other people while still keeping a strong marriage and love at home. We have also made some terrific friends

I'v always enjoyed being with men 30+ years older than me. Now I am with someone 64 and he loves a full bush. So of course now I have a full bush but it's neat. He loves it and honestly I do too... What surprised me is when he has other younger men join us. Surprised how many men in their 20's and 30's love that I have a full bush too! Seems to be normal for men 55+ that I am with to really love a full bush. So pleasantly surprised and happy!

When having sex with my husband there is a feeling after orgasm where I just want to stay in his arms and enjoy the moment. This Afterglow gives us time to enjoy the moment, and a time to get our breathing and heart rate to return to normal. A time to really connect, a time to cuddle and snuggle. A time of quiet and a time to giggle. So many mornings we just don’t have the time. It’s a rush to shower, dress and rush to work. The afterglow feeling stays with me during the day. How do you handle Afterglow when you are with another partner? Do you cuddle with others? Is snuggling and basking in the afterglow to intimate to share with a LS partner?

We have a code as well. It would be a little more difficult to enact the code once things got started but not impossible. We stay close, usually within touching distance. This is important to her for the comfort in knowing should a situation like this arise I will be attuned and able to respond. I've never had to pull out(so to speak) once we've already engaged but have had to stop the activities from progressing further at a less intimate level. I believe I've handled it civilly and with little to no drama. I like to think how I would have responded in such a situation as the one described above but until it happens that dramatically I can only go through it in my head. Making her uncomfortable is one thing. Hurting her, especially after she's told him about it, is on another level and the response would probably not be as civil. Still it's good practice, even if just in my head, to see that these scenarios sometimes actually play out.

If one of us isn't 'feeling it' about the other couple, we have 'code words' that lets the other know. Once one of us evokes the code, we politely excuse ourselves and move on. If, in your example, and something is already 'happening' but you are being hurt (or in discomfort or just not comfortable) I would rather have things stopped because there is no amount of pleasure that I could be receiving that would offset any amount of displeasure she might have to endure. We're a team, if we aren't both having a good time, then we need to move on.

If you do it again I might...

VanillaBean: One of the problems with this logic is that while, in this example, "you" chose to go to the club and get drunk, you do not CHOOSE to be sexually assaulted or raped. You cannot control the actions of another person, particularly one with ill intentions. Could "you" have made safer decisions, maybe. Could "you" be assaulted or raped when you are sober, yes. Could you be assaulted/raped when you are wearing ratty sweat pants and a sweatshirt, yes. Rape/sexual assault is not typically about sex-- it is about power/control/aggression. The husband and I had a similar experience at a club. Woman was either drunk or unable to walk in high heels. Later her partner was back in the play area spanking her so hard her ass was purple. Management watched. It made me uncomfortable. Also, re: the percentage of the population who are "bad" vs "not". Until a study is done (yes, with all the inherent issues in these type of studies accounted for) looking at the rate of these bad acts in the general population compared to the swinging population, everything that has been said in this forum is anecdotal and what "we think/hope". As often as sexual crimes are not reported in the general population, I could see them not being reported even more often in taboo populations (BDSM, swinging, polyamory, etc). If you can't even be honest with people about your lifestyle, it makes sense that you would be more reluctant to report a crime as those details would come out.

I think your logic is a little flawed. Child molesters are horribly broken people who would not be swingers. There aren't children in swinger groups. They will take up hobbies and occupations to be around children. Child molesters did not get into the priesthood for religion, they got into it because they are predators. Drugging women is something another type of predator does, and it isn't just celebrities doing it. My guess is that it is more about control of women out of their league...but I'm guessing. As a father of four girls, that is a frightening type of monster. I can't imagine this type of person being a swinger. Do you need to drug the willing? If they are not willing, do you drug the man as well? Seems like a logistical nightmare. The border control agent had a perfect job for a serial killer. Hoards of people with no identity and a ton of open land. A serial killer as a swinger would be another logistical nightmare. Trump is a rich, self entitled douche-bag. He would be a lonely swinger. Christians view all humans as sinful, not just swingers. Also, what is the swinger to vanilla ratio? If there were billions of swingers, the odds are that monsters would be more prevalent. My feeling is that most swingers are not the victim type. They are also not flying solo. These are not vanilla behaviors, these are aberrant behaviors. Just because these are not the behaviors of swingers, you should not group them with the behaviors of vanillas. These are monsters, not vanillas.

Like death itself, sexuality has its own lifetable--in or out of the lifestyle. Perhaps its a bias of ascertainment, but folks in the lifestyle seem to stay sexually active longer. Thus there are important considerations for seniors in the LS. There are physiologic changes. Working to stay healthy, attractive, engaged takes effort. Medical conditions and medical interventions can favorably or unfavorably affect participation--there will be "ups and downs". Counterbalancing those medical/physiological issues are seemingly much more relaxed attitudes about sex and intimacy. Bear in mind that the two most toxic emotions -- envy and jealousy--are based on fears of inadequacy and of abandonment respectively. Long-married seniors tend to be past that and can relax and revel in the hedonistic pleasures without judgement or concern for alienation of affection. It does make a difference. We do need to find different approaches that respect senior body clocks. Most seniors (count us among them) do not sleep as well as in our younger years. We also rise earlier and sleep earlier. The "club that starts at 10 pm" is not realistic--or at least less fun-- in the 7th decade of life, so smaller and local parties work better. Pool parties, hot tub parties, naked cocktail parties, cook-outs and so on are among the different approaches that seem to work better with our age group. A reminder: pregnancy might not be an issue, but STI's are rampant among seniors. Perhaps paradoxically, connections do matter to seniors. It remains important to bring folks together in a non-pressured situation, let them explore connections before moving to a more sexually charged atmosphere. It might be a matter of a social hour followed by an icebreaker, a bar-b-q before the skinny dip, a clothed social hour before everyone goes for naked cocktails. Just our $0.02

Nope!

My husband invited his best friend to join us in bed. My husband and I had a number of ffm playtimes all with college friends of mine. We have also been to parties, again with my college friends. When he suggested his/our guy friend I had all the typical feelings about friends. I know it was crazy to question mixing friends and sex, we had already played with many of my friends, though all of those friends were not in our daily life. They for the most part don’t live near us. The other thing was all of our play contained bisexual sex only with the girls. I never saw any guy bi sex. It never came up in conversation that the guys didn’t play with each other. When he suggested bringing a guy into our bed I asked him about that. He said he had no desires at all for that and that a threesome had nothing to do with bisexuality. It was all about me and he had no problem watching me enjoy someone who we both like. Our first time was a little strange at first but turned into a great time. Since then we have enjoyed many times together and my husband is fine with our friend visiting when my husband travels for business.

I would like to state the reasons For playing with friends. I see on to Poll topic on this board this topic never ends. The great majority say don’t play with friends, not even friends you have made while playing with them. I ask, who better to play with? I understand some people like to have sex with strangers. No attachments sometimes without even know a name. Have sex, go home. I had one nighters as a single woman. I’ve had a number in college as well. To be honest I had guilt after one nighters. Self doubt. I know I am younger than most on here but I am sure the vast majority had one nighters. My intro to the LS was with a colle friend. I was the unicorn. It was a threesome and I had sex with a girlfriend. It did cause guilt. Guilt of having sex with a female. Guilt of cheating on my boyfriend. What I loved was having fun with someone who I have shared many other fun things with. Our relationship was not based on sex alone. I soon learned that other friends from college were into playing too. It surprised me at first. My boyfriend, who I have since married was upset with my newfound experience. I think with the help of a few girlfriends his being upset was turned into being the luckiest guy. For the most part our play friends are friends of mine from college and live hours from us. We have met new friends mostly from my old friends. We enjoy the parties we have gone to. We also enjoy tailgating, going to games, and just hanging out. Not everything is sex. Bringing our LS to our local friends was scary for me because I read the downside so many have written about. My husbands best friend and then my best friend. Our guy friend was very eager to play. Surprise surprise. What really amazed me was the willingness of my girlfriend wanting to join me and my husband. Both of these people are close friends who we enjoy being with. Our friendships go much further than sex. Sex has just added a new dynamic to what we already have. The only thing that might be better, and I did say might, would be my girlfriends willingness to be more open with bisexual play. I respect her and won’t push.

Several years ago I decided to let it all grow out. I was so used to shaving regularly that it was strange not to do it. As the hair grew in I thought it was funny. I even think sex felt different. Mike even said it was different. We decided to find someone to play with. We enjoy finding guys who aren’t on the prowl. We met a younger guy and he said he never saw a full bush. He almost bolted but he didn’t. We then decided to dye my pubes. We dyed it a bright red. I even put a strawberry lotion down there. We met a man who went crazy when he saw a red bush. We swore to him it was natural and that we call it my strawberry patch. He was hesitant but he was down on me and asked if anyone every said that I tasted like strawberries. Of course we played like he was joking. Of course we knew it tasted like that. He thought he was original when he came and said strawberry and cream. We never told him.

Not that I'm an expert, but I think this is a major virtue of small group play. Hanging out with two other couples at once leaves room for a lot of unexpected developments.

I would defiantly think that this has happened on many occasions. Sometimes they might live with it and live with the doubt or some may opt to terminate due to uncertainty of the paternal parent. Either way it's a personal choice amongst the parties involved.