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People look around and find people to whom that can point and make the claim, “I am above him, I am above her, I am morally superior.”

Thanks to all who commented on our original post. Always good to see discussion. A few observations. Most of us on this board live in two worlds, the vanilla world and the LS world. These are, in the jargon, "alternative lifestyles". When we pass between these two worlds, we carry not only our physical selves but also some system of values. Indeed, it is precisely those systems of values that not only enable us to inhabit both worlds but also to find sufficient satisfaction in those worlds to keep us going over and back again. The vanilla world encourages violence as entertainment yet discourages sexual expression except in narrowly circumscribed situations. The swinger world encourages sexual expression among consenting adults and discourages violence except in the narrowly circumscribed situation of consensual role play. Yes, there are monsters in both worlds. It seems odd, though, for a civilized society to label the vanilla world "normal" and the swinger world sinful, aberrant, destructive etc. Yes, it's hypocritical. But the deeper question is why the hypocrisy persists.

Guys, If you come out to a club on single guy night don't be a wallflower or a creeper. Engage, be charming and be able to perform. Women still want to be seduced and made to feel hot and sexy and wanted. It's frustrating that she has to do most of the work to seduce you then when she get's you where you she wants you it's over in 5 minutes. That is all.

Not only those three but racism is somewhat the same. Most racists have nothing going for themselves other than their belief that they are superior simply because they happened to draw a white card at conception. I've sometimes thought that a happy couple playing with others makes other couples, who can't/don't/won't, envious. It's like the folks who, for religious reasons, can't drink and want liquor to be illegal. Or folks who don't smoke but see others enjoying a buzz, wanting to keep recreational marijuana illegal. If they can't have fun, they don't want anyone to have fun.

The couple that owns our favorite club never plays. They are too busy handling all the little things that make it a great club.

Then you have got to bring it all out in the open with her COMPLETELY. Voice your desires and voice your concerns in the same kind of way that you would talk about any other major life decision. You mention that she said(half jokingly) that it's all up to you. What exactly does that mean? She doesn't want to be a part of picking the guy? I think it's important, especially starting out, that you are both in 100% which means she is directly involved in the decisions, has input and veto power. I'd be afraid that she would pull the same, "I can't believe you did it" line. By having her involved she can back out at any time and not put you through what you went through before to get back to this point. Can you live with her decision? Some people just aren't cut out for the lifestyle. It seems like there is a recurring theme on this board where fantasy and reality don't intersect. Some people can separate and compartmentalize the emotions of love, lust, desire, excitement, jealousy, compersion, etc. and are able to deal with each on its own. Other's just aren't wired that way. It's one thing to talk about the fantasy of it, it's totally different to see her actually go down on another guy or watch her fuck another guy and enjoy it for what it is or for her to see you do it. You have to make sure it's something she truly wants to do.

We have a code as well. It would be a little more difficult to enact the code once things got started but not impossible. We stay close, usually within touching distance. This is important to her for the comfort in knowing should a situation like this arise I will be attuned and able to respond. I've never had to pull out(so to speak) once we've already engaged but have had to stop the activities from progressing further at a less intimate level. I believe I've handled it civilly and with little to no drama. I like to think how I would have responded in such a situation as the one described above but until it happens that dramatically I can only go through it in my head. Making her uncomfortable is one thing. Hurting her, especially after she's told him about it, is on another level and the response would probably not be as civil. Still it's good practice, even if just in my head, to see that these scenarios sometimes actually play out.

However you view The Bible, as a work of divine inspiration or as a nice piece of fantasy fiction, it does have a nice summary, the Ten Commandments, laying out how people should act toward each other. Various legal systems take the principles contained within these commandments and expand them into a set of codes and a collection of laws. Happily these codes and laws evolve. The laws take some right turns and sometimes some left turns but in the long run, go straight down the middle and continue to relate closely to the commandments. If a famous TV dad goes to jail or a former reality TV star grabs pussy without permission, I do not see subsequent legal action as retribution or punishment as much as a lesson on what is not the way to act in a civil society. Cannot speak for everybody's society, but in north America and western Europe, swinging is, happily, not contrary to law.

Hi, Petra here. The great thing about having a close, trusted relationship with a male play partner is having sexual satisfaction when your husband is unavailable because he is away, wrapped up in a work project, or just too tired. It's also great to have a female friend nearby to enjoy your bi side when you are feeling it. Keep us posted, I like knowing about situations that are working out. Thanks.

VanillaBean: One of the problems with this logic is that while, in this example, "you" chose to go to the club and get drunk, you do not CHOOSE to be sexually assaulted or raped. You cannot control the actions of another person, particularly one with ill intentions. Could "you" have made safer decisions, maybe. Could "you" be assaulted or raped when you are sober, yes. Could you be assaulted/raped when you are wearing ratty sweat pants and a sweatshirt, yes. Rape/sexual assault is not typically about sex-- it is about power/control/aggression. The husband and I had a similar experience at a club. Woman was either drunk or unable to walk in high heels. Later her partner was back in the play area spanking her so hard her ass was purple. Management watched. It made me uncomfortable. Also, re: the percentage of the population who are "bad" vs "not". Until a study is done (yes, with all the inherent issues in these type of studies accounted for) looking at the rate of these bad acts in the general population compared to the swinging population, everything that has been said in this forum is anecdotal and what "we think/hope". As often as sexual crimes are not reported in the general population, I could see them not being reported even more often in taboo populations (BDSM, swinging, polyamory, etc). If you can't even be honest with people about your lifestyle, it makes sense that you would be more reluctant to report a crime as those details would come out.

SexyHorny, good points. At our club, they allow a limited number of single guys; yes, you're right, it costs them a lot more AND they have to be sponsored by a couple and come with them the first time. Like you say, the choices are limited. On the other hand, experienced single males tend to be less creepy. If a guy approached us, we tried to take some time with them even if we didn't plan on playing with them that night (or ever.) That helped their confidence, after that they'd be sure to say hello to us on subsequent visits. My wife was quite the flirt, she approached many a single male and asked him to dance. A few were, as you say, shell-shocked but they got over that quickly when she would grind her ass against him and drag his hand to her breast. After we had been in the lifestyle a couple of years, one 'typical' night would be that we would go into a private room with a couple and swap. Later, long after midnight, my wife would find she was still in the mood and if a sexy single male approached her, she'd take him into a room often with me trailing along to watch and keep her safe. Good times!

I’d like to offer an opinion on the subject. First, wish we had a singles night at our club. They don’t offer one. My wife and I love threesomes. Guys are charged a premium price. Almost double a couple. So this limits our choice. We’ve never played with a single guy at a club. The ones that are their, we have witnessed the same. They sit around. They don’t engage. Guess I can’t blame them. It’s tough. Even as the male of a couple, I’ve had some difficulty with other wives. Maybe I do it wrong. But I think this is a problem with guys in the couple too. I struggle with things to say. Even when I do compliment a lady, I’ve had them say something smart ass back. Example. I told a lady her outfit was the sexiest I ever saw. And her response was take a good look cause that’s all you get. Now, I’m sorry, it’s hard to be confident with ladies doing that. I can definitely see a single guy struggling with this. Some ideas on learning this confidence would be helpful. QUOTE=agreatguy;592236]I can see what you are saying to a certain extent but they should know the score if they are at a club on single guy night. Most, if not all, of the couples are there for the same thing. That in itself should give them some them confidence and not intimidate them. Actually, I've been there as a single guy although it's been quite a few years. I looked for cues and if there wasn't anything obvious I mingled. In this particular case we did walk around a bit and spoke to one guy who seemed shell shocked. He actually came and talked to us later but we had already had our fun for the night and were waiting on another couple to finish their evening so we could tell them goodbye. The guy she finally grabbed got many clues from her that he seemed to ignore including multiple glances and flirty smiles. I tracked him down and opened the door for him and he again seemed shell shocked. I don't know why. It's what he's there for. She finally grabbed his arm as he walked by and got him talking then he couldn't take his eyes off of her. My wife has all the freedom she needs but I think she feels like she wants me there with her so I'll be there with her until she doesn't want that. What she really wants is to be pursued a little not always have to do the pursuing. Fortunately the guys she has pursued have all turned out to be decent guys and charming enough once WE broke the ice. I don't think it's too much to expect a single guy to approach us and start a conversation. I understand the fear of being rejected but that's going to happen, you move on to the next couple. My experience in the past and with my wife is that confidence is going to overcome a lot of other shortcomings a guy may have as long as he doesn't come off as arrogant. Any one of four of the five guys there that night could have had a great night if they had just approached us. As far as I could tell the only guy that got laid was the one my wife finally made a move on and he certainly left happy. I guess that was the reason for my post other than it just being a rant. Just wanted to let guys know that confidence and charm will open the doors more than sitting by themselves waiting on the couples to make the first move.

I can see what you are saying to a certain extent but they should know the score if they are at a club on single guy night. Most, if not all, of the couples are there for the same thing. That in itself should give them some them confidence and not intimidate them. Actually, I've been there as a single guy although it's been quite a few years. I looked for cues and if there wasn't anything obvious I mingled. In this particular case we did walk around a bit and spoke to one guy who seemed shell shocked. He actually came and talked to us later but we had already had our fun for the night and were waiting on another couple to finish their evening so we could tell them goodbye. The guy she finally grabbed got many clues from her that he seemed to ignore including multiple glances and flirty smiles. I tracked him down and opened the door for him and he again seemed shell shocked. I don't know why. It's what he's there for. She finally grabbed his arm as he walked by and got him talking then he couldn't take his eyes off of her. My wife has all the freedom she needs but I think she feels like she wants me there with her so I'll be there with her until she doesn't want that. What she really wants is to be pursued a little not always have to do the pursuing. Fortunately the guys she has pursued have all turned out to be decent guys and charming enough once WE broke the ice. I don't think it's too much to expect a single guy to approach us and start a conversation. I understand the fear of being rejected but that's going to happen, you move on to the next couple. My experience in the past and with my wife is that confidence is going to overcome a lot of other shortcomings a guy may have as long as he doesn't come off as arrogant. Any one of four of the five guys there that night could have had a great night if they had just approached us. As far as I could tell the only guy that got laid was the one my wife finally made a move on and he certainly left happy. I guess that was the reason for my post other than it just being a rant. Just wanted to let guys know that confidence and charm will open the doors more than sitting by themselves waiting on the couples to make the first move.

Yes-- making me laugh is the easiest way into my pants other than feeding me! Put me at ease.

Exactly I just want guys to know that women, mine at least and I don't think she's alone, want to be pursued. Certainly not in a creepy way but she's there all dolled up looking for another guy that will take the time to make a little small talk and feel the situation out then move things along. She's not looking for an Adonis although that doesn't hurt. A charming personality and a clean cut appearance mean more to her. So guys, You've put some thought into doing this, I'm guessing it took some courage to make the decision to do this, now put some effort into getting ready, trim the beard, shave, smell nice but not overpowering, dress to impress. Even if it's just nice jeans and an un-tucked shirt make sure they fit well. When you get to the club, mingle. If you've prepare yourself you'll be more confident. Women like confidence not cockiness. Know a couple of slightly suggestive or provocative jokes or if you're just naturally witty make her laugh. We all love to laugh and it sets us at ease. Here's another hint. Learn a little something about women's shoes. If she's wearing something that looks expensive, strappy and sexy with a tall heel she wants them to be noticed...by everyone. It may feel awkward at first but it's a great opening line to compliment her shoes. I'm not saying it will get you laid but it will most likely open the door. I dare you, just walk up and say "Hi, I just wanted to come over and tell you that those might be the sexiest shoes I've ever seen and they make your legs look great". Then, after she's reacted to your compliment, look at him and say "You must feel like the luckiest guy on earth" Come back and report to us after you try it. My wife was getting frustrated and it wasn't just her. I don't think we saw any of the guys make a move all night. I think the only one that got to play was the one she seduced. There were 3 or 4 guys just sitting alone at tables. A couple were walking around the room but had a blank stare, not even trying to make eye contact. Only one guy appeared to have a creep factor, just the way he was lurking in the shadows. Everyone was avoiding THAT guy. We stopped at one table where a guy was sitting and she said something to him. He responded but didn't try to continue the conversation. I mean here's this good looking 40 something woman dressed in a lacy, very low cut top, short skirt and strappy stilletos approaching you and you can't think of something to move the conversation along? Show some interest? We just walked away shaking our heads. Later she mentioned an interest in another guy and said something about the guys needed to grow some balls. I excused myself to the bathroom at what seemed an opportune time to speak to him. I asked him if he could be charming. He said he didn't know. Seriously, you're at a swingers club on single guy night and you don't know if you can be charming? I just told him if he could find some that there was a lady with me that might give him a chance. Jesus, how big do you need the door to be? He eventually walked by us again and she reached out for him to ask him some question or other. Then started asking what it was like being a single guy at the club, what brought him out, was it his first time? The guy was ok once he started talking and while I don't mind seeing my wife be the seductress I know she wants to be seduced too. She had to do all the work from the first word to making the first move and beyond. After she got done rocking his world then other guys wanted to introduce themselves including the guy she tried to talk to earlier. Why? Because you were watching and now you know for sure that she will fuck you? Or was it because it was getting late and now you had enough alcohol to give you some courage? Sorry...They missed their chance but she was still gracious enough to talk to them. She was sly enough to try to coach them up for next time asking if they had had any luck knowing they hadn't. Then asked me if I would give them some advice on how to have more success from a guy's point of view. We've heard the stories about guys being too aggressive. Our club doesn't put up with nonsense but they don't tie a guy down in his chair either.

Well said. I absolutely agree. Single guys roaming around a club or party can really come across as creepy and unappealing. I mean, seriously, make me laugh, tell a joke, show some of your personality. Prove to me your a human being at the very least. Jeez.