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Folks, let's not give this fire any more oxygen. The quote above demonstrates possible significant psychological trauma or damage that this individual may have suffered at some time in the past. In fact, it is almost pathognomonic for what used to be termed, in the DSM-V, as "narcissistic personality disorder". The OP has responded to all of our attempts to redirect what amounts to triggered narcissistic rage into productive conversation by utilizing grandiose projections of himself in order that his ego not be further damaged. There is no arguing with an individual with these psychological characteristics. Focusing attention on him only increases his feelings of being "special" and "in control". No amount of logical reasoning will penetrate this pathology. In the words of the WOPR computer from "War Games", (a reference which all of you who are ancient like me will understand)....."A strange game. The only way to win is not to play." Let's not play here. Let's go play in the LS and leave the OP where he belongs....with his imaginary women, his narcissistic rage, and his self-ostracism from what is, in my mind, a vibrant and healthy community. T

Patience. At 34 my wife was focused on being a mom. That was the correct focus for her at the time. 34 is in the past, and it is Katie bar the door now. BTW NEVER use this sentence again "I loved it when we swapped it was the great sexual experience of my life." That will not set the proper tone with your wife

You can’t and shouldn’t force the issue. If it’s not something she’s into or comfortable with then there’s nothing wrong with that. Is her issue with you and another woman a jealousy thing? You’re going to hear this often, but communication and trust are the key elements to an open relationship. Continue to talk with her about your feelings and wants but don’t be pushy. No always means no. It may not be a permanent no, but simply a no for now. Give her time to get comfortable with the idea and of course continue to communicate with her on how she’s feeling and what emotions she is dealing with. Perhaps one day, she’ll have a change of heart.

Gamingbeejay’s reply is perfect. I’ve been there. 2 1/2 years later she was ready to take the next step, on her own. Patience and communication are key no matter the end result.

Search is your friend as there are dozens of threads about this, but short answer is: DON'T DO IT! No matter how good of friends they may be, they could also be SHOCKED at you bringing it up. Then if things ever so south (at that point or later), the likelihood of EVERYONE then hearing about what you choose to do in the bedroom and who or how many you do it with will become public knowledge...friends, FAMILY, coworkers will all probably know on top of losing these friends. Most people can't handle non-monogamy, lots of people will be surprised and insulted that you even suggest it, very few will welcome it and even fewer can actually handle it on a personal level, even less can handle it on a couples level. It is MUCH BETTER to make friends out of swingers, than try to convert friends into swingers. Less risk and chance of problems later. The average person just isn't 'wired' for this (or everyone would be doing it). Granted, some couples have swung with friends and it has worked out, but some people have won the lottery as well. Don't take this risk. It isn't worth it.

Are you ready to lose your friendship with this person if it doesn't work out? Are you ready to be outted to your community, including all of your other friends? If the answer to both of these questions isn't 'yes,' don't do anything; let it go by. There's a great chance both of these things WILL happen. If the answer is yes, simply talk to your friend, let him know he's got a shot. But since you don't even know the girlfriend yet, seems to me your fantasy is a little unrealistic.

If they are lying to their wife how can one be so sure they are not lying to you? They are demonstrating their honesty and trustworthiness by telling you they are lying to their spouse? Not what I would consider the safest bet, nor a good place to start. What else might they not tell you?

No, don't do it. What happens when the wife finds out and files for divorce (imagining worse case scenarios here)? EVERYONE will know what went on. Playing with friends, especially cheating friends, are just not worth it.

I'm pretty sure experimenting with vanilla people for your first non-vanilla experience is going to be high-risk/low-reward. I understand the appeal, but it's probably going to end in one explosion or another. There's a girlfriend who is an unknown quantity involved, too. If it was just a less complicated threesome and the interest from the third party was clearer, it might be different.

As others have stated, there are often times that we make our sexual preferences tie into the types of people most similar to us. Keeping the topic away from politics or preferences it just seems more people have become more vocal on their political views in the last few years. Some people bring up politics just to start a debate. The political views of some people are sometimes tied into where a person was brought up. Maybe due to the fact I was raised in a mixing pot I am more tolerant of different views. What I am not tolerant of is pushing your views in a social setting. When meeting my friends I am more interested in their families,vacations, TV shows, movies and music. Politics just brings up debate and trying to prove you are smarter than the people you don’t agree with. Aside from politics I don’t enjoy men who think they are superior than everyone else. I also don’t think anyone refused to play because they didn’t like Star Wars.

There is quite a bit of information and advice on this site. I suggest you and the wife both do plenty of reading, continued talking. When you are ready sign up on a site. Try meet and greets in your area, maybe you’ll meet a couple with similiar interests. There are also some good single men out there that understand their role and are respectful. It does take patience at times, have fun and enjoy each other.

Usually it isn't 'I love you', but something like 'I love your cock', 'I love what you're doing to me', 'I love THAT'. You should both know that anything said in the heat of passion isn't a binding contract but just something said in passion. It doesn't count. IF it does happen, I'm sure that a moment of silence would be followed by laughter. We have told the couple that we have dated for year that we love them (but not during a sexual experience)...we do, and they love us as well, but we all understand that we LOVE our SO, that our SO is our primary. We love, care and respect them, but the love we have for them pales in comparison to the love we have with our SO.

That's true. As they say, for therapy to work, the patient has to want to change. The nature of narcissism is an inability to cope with the possibility that it's the patient that has the problem, and not everyone else. The narcissist rarely experiences insight. Your prognosis is very poor.

Thank you all for taking the time to send some advice. I don’t think we’ll be going ahead with this guy. I feel like there’s too much potential for things to get ugly, quickly. Any advice on how to get started in all of this? My wife is open to the idea, but still hesitant, especially at the thought of doing this with someone she doesn’t know. I really don’t want to push too hard or push her to do something she’s not all in on. Any suggestions on ways we can ease into things?

Communication is key. Remember, you're learning the likes, dislikes, pleasures and issues of new people. It's always important to share information. Some of my best play experiences came with a lot of very open and up front discussion, long before clothes came off and the bedroom door closed, of what everyone enjoyed. During play, it is also important to say "yes, do that" or "no, that doesn't work for me" (or, especially, "ouch! don't do that!" ... it happens). The important part is to be open, honest and confident enough to take (and give) feedback as a positive part of the experience. In my opinion, and experience, communication is the heart and soul of the LS. I think your philosophy is a good one. I've personally never had that happen. I've always been very aware that the woman I'm with isn't my wife and my wife is always very aware that the guy she's with isn't me. That's part of the fun.

First, a big welcome to the board Imnewhere8484! You are definitely in the right place for couples who are curious about swinging, and as you say, not tripping at the starting line. My wife and I would never play with a married person who is playing without permission. We're into swinging to enjoy ourselves, to enjoy each other, and to enjoy the people we have sex with. We would never...ever...want to contribute to the unhappiness of another couple. Just the thought that we are effectively backstabbing the unknowing spouse, is completely repulsive to us. Even if she never found out, it's still 100000000000% wrong. Neither my wife nor I would do it. Think of it this way; she wants this guy because she could vet him for STDs. So, do you trust a guy to tell you he has no STDs when he's willing to stab his own wife in the back? I would never trust such a person, not in a thousand years. You can find decent single guys who are in the swinging world. My wife has found several, and has been fortunate enough to have had long term relationships with two of them. I would recommend finding singles guys on swinglifestyle.com, and filter them well. As in the vanilla dating world, there are going to be some of them that aren't worth the time of day. But, there are some great guys out there to be had, guys whom you can trust. To other points; you're going to have some uneasiness whether it's this guy or another. The first time your wife has sex with another man, even if you're very much looking forward to it, it still going to be a bit of a nervous moment. Kinda like they say...the first is never the best. Same goes for swinging :-) I've watched my wife have sex with a lot of men now, and it was definitely better with subsequent men. It was better for her too, as her own nerves were on edge the first time. And there's a piece of advice for you; don't judge swinging by the first encounter. A lot of what you are saying sounds great. The communication sounds wonderful, and the desire to help her achieve her greatest sexual satisfaction is a wonderful basis on which to take your first steps into this lifestyle. Chances are, she will love having sex with other men as much as you enjoy watching her do so. If you have any other questions or thoughts you want to bounce off of us, feel free. We're a helpful bunch here.

“If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.” ― Catherine Aird

Am I missing something here? Why not go and just NOT play. Have a great time as friends WO benefits. I agree with GoldCOCouple, it's not settled with your wife. I'd hate for you to come home to a mess after what should be a fun time.

First, fix the communication with your wife. I know that you said it's fine, but it isn't. Second, talk with her and find out what the issue is. Let her know that if she doesn't want you doing anything with the other woman, then that's exactly what you will do (and do just that). There's still plenty of time and she may very well change her demeanor again at some point but just keep doing things the way you have in the past: group texts, etc. Make sure that she is comfortable with her being your number one and that nothing will happen that she isn't aware of and has approved. Good luck and let us know how things go. Just don't tell us you are going to see Lady Gaga or Celine Dion...Aerosmith, Judas Priest, or even Paul McCarthy are all acceptable (heck, I'd go with you to see Aerosmith or Judas Priest).

All very good advice and I certainly appreciate that! I did finally tell my husband (he asked). I told him the truth but not in such hurtful language. Being the amazing guy he is, he simply pointed out that not every woman will find him attractive, not every man will me attractive but that's a good thing. If we were all attracted to the same people, it would be chaotic! It did not phase him at all. He did say, however, that if she wanted to play with him, he wouldn't have cared what she had said previously. Men are from Mars?

So we've been in the orlando area for the last few months as we started down this Lifestyle adventure. As for a club check out Secrets. We've only been during a slow day but its supposed to be a little more active during the weekend. As for a house party check out The Treehouse located in lakeland FL. It was our first and frankly if we weren't 90 minutes away we would have gone every weekend. We will definitely return to either next time we are in the area.

I had a strange experience with this. couple of years ago. My wife and I ended up sharing a voyeur room with another couple and figured they were into a full swap. He was older than his wife nd she was very attractive. She was very interested in me, but he didn’t seem very interested in my wife. As things progressed he explained that his wife really wanted to fuck me and that he just wanted to watch and if that would be okay. My wife, being super cool always, didn’t take offense and offered to suck his cock while he watched his wife and I. He wasn’t interested so my wife being the exhibitionist that she is just sat back and masturbated. He directed me as I took his wife. He told me what to do and what he wanted to see. I was definitely strange but I was super turned on by the whole idea. We spent the entire hour in every possible position. She wanted my wife to join as we were finishing up and while she was riding me he finally finished himself off and shot one of the biggest loads I’ve ever seen. As we were cleaning up and getting dressed he explained that he had been denied an orgasm for a month and the whole scene was a big fantasy for them both. Pretty weird but fun and hey, just proves sometimes you gotta go with the flow.

If my partner said this to me, and I trusted them 100%, that is all I would need to hear (at the time anyway, for sure). However... Over time, I suspect curiosity may get the better of me, and I would inquire. I think it is just human nature. As has been suggested... When the right opportunity presents itself (especially if he brings it up), it may be a good idea to come clean with the whole story. I agree that this woman is crazy, manipulative, and looking to cause a lot of drama. Unfortunately, there is no real defense against crazy. Another favorite guidepost of mine is: "Never argue with a moron. People who are watching may not be able to tell the difference." To be completely honest, I can't say that I always live it (I can have a fairly quick trigger when I feel that I am being bullied, or someone close to me is being threatened in some way), but pretty much without exception I have regretted caving and reacting to some rude (crazy) person's onslaught. The worst thing you can do is get sucked into her drama, and stoop to her level. If ignoring her feels like the safest thing for you to do, then that is likely the most prudent course of action for you. "Words may hurt, but silence kills..." - Shotgun Wedding - Timbuk3 If you can keep your composure, kindness is usually the better path to take. One of the premiere rules in the Swinger Lifestyle (LS) is that "No means No". ... If this person is repeatedly ignoring this, then it is quite probable that nothing you can do or say will deter them. You could go to the club manager / owner though, and explain the situation to them. (Be safe and smart about it however.) I bet they will know how to handle it. It seems highly unlikely that you are the only recipient of this persons disrespectful behavior. :-|

Decisions should not be made while "buzzed".

Hi, lizandfriz. Have you two sat down and talked about this? I mean really sat and talked? Not in bed or after sex but at the dining table? I can only foresee more pain for both of you if you both continue down this road. From what I've read, she's playing without any consideration of your feelings and you may or may not play but if you do, it also causes her some pain. What part of any of that sounds like fun or healthy for the relationship? After you two have a heart-to-heart talk about this, I would recommend not swinging and working on the relationship because it doesn't sound like there's the respect, love, trust, and communication for your relationship to handle swinging. For us, the best thing that came out of swinging was an enhanced level of communication that bred a closer intimacy. It wasn't the sex with other people...it was the fact that it strengthened our relationship, our love, and our trust in one another. I think if swinging doesn't do that for a relationship, then the couple needs to stop and contemplate what their relationship means to each other and if they want to improve it or not.

Forgive me for being blunt, but it doesn't sound like your time with her is being entirely fun and pleasurable either. In my view being in a bad relationship, because you think it's better than being single, just holds you back from finding a good relationship. You got it in one, my friend. You got it in one.

Thanks for all the great advice and information. I know that it's not a good situation. I love her and have been maybe too quick to give her room to explore while feeling bad about myself. I don't actually want to be with anyone else. My time without her was anything but fun and pleasurable. Before any of this we had talked about joining this lifestyle, but I'm starting to feel like that ship has sailed. I mean, if it's not fun and shared in some way, what's the point.

Sounds like you two are not even on the same playing field. It's great that you want to be part of it and you should tell her that. If she's not into trying it 'with you' though and doesn't want to stop doing what she's doing alone knowing that you don't feel whole with it then that's not swinging, thats cheating! Me and Mr G don't swing separately it's a choice that works for us but from what I gather from the good people on this site is that the ones that do, still share everything! You said that she had "sex of some sort"...not enough details, your imagination is filling in the blanks, I'm not surprised you feel the way you do. Part of the thrill is walking through the fear of thinking we might 'fuck up' but knowing that our partner is there to hold our hand anyway! You have a lot to talk about, be honest with her.

She stops doing things that make you uncomfortable. You stop doing things that make her uncomfortable. You both have a good long talk about what you want out of your relationship and what is or isn't ok. Then you talk about it some more, and more and yet more. You come to an agreement and you both stick to it. Swinging requires trust, sharing and open, honest communication.

Love, trust, communication. First, are you two supposed to be exclusive? Have you ever been invited to go with her on vacation? It sounds like you need to start by talking with her and finding out more of what her thinking is. There's another thread that is talking about swinging vs. cheating...this sounds like another case of cheating but is definitely NOT swinging. If she isn't willing to stop, then the question becomes are you willing to tolerate it. Personally, this doesn't sound good at all...