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I think what it comes down to is how much do you value your marriage? How much is your kids having a healthy home life worth to you? You already noted she gave you the ever-dangerous "fine", which isn't permission as you know. If you move ahead with this without permission from her you will significantly damage and possibly ruin your marriage. They are well advertised on various swinger sites. Swinglifestyle.com (SLS) has been noted above. The intent of course is to get lots of swingers together in a non-committal and non-pushy environment, with no expectations. A lot of new couples prefer this approach rather than going to a swinger's club. You're in the heart of it, with easy access to Windsor, London, Toronto, etc. I took a quick look at SLS and found a meet and greet group in Windsor and another in Cambridge. As others have noted, we've seen this sort of question arise with other husbands before. It's not a question of tone. We are telling you this is a trainwreck waiting to happen. It WILL go off the rails. A wonderful woman is a thing to behold physically and spiritually. Trying to convince them of anything is way, way out of bounds. All you can do is discuss. You've done that. She's said no. She has full right to say no, and anything less than acceptance of that in every respect is very disrespectful of her. This isn't what she signed up for. This isn't what she wanted. It's not what she wants now. Maybe some day in the future it's something she'll want, but it's entirely up to her and she needs to be respected. If I might offer a tiny bit of hope; there was no way in hell my wife would ever, ever, ever consider swinging. She was aware I had been involved with a married woman with the husband's consent and she was repulsed. That was the only dabbling I'd done in swinging, and I hadn't even though of it as swinging. It was something that evolved. I hadn't been to clubs, meet and greets, etc. Anyway, my wife was a million percent dead against it. Then on evening in bed, some seven years into our marriage (seven year itch, anyone?) she postulated 'what would it be like to have two men massaging her at the same time'? I was dumbstruck. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. It was a long road after that before she ever had sex with another man, but now she thoroughly enjoys it, relishes it, and looks forward to it, all while maintaining our very healthy marriage. If this is a thousand step trip, you're on step -10. Be careful. Be very careful. You just might get what you wish for and lose everything. I don't understand how one can be jealous because their spouse doesn't initiate sex. Depressed maybe, but jealous? You're right. Even if you waxed poetic for an hour about your marriage, we'd still only know probably 5% of how your relationship works. What we're telling you is that from our ample experience on this board and in real life, what you are describing, even if we are missing details, is an absolute trainwreck waiting to happen. You wanted advice, and we have given it. This is a very helpful board with a lot of good, caring people who truly want to help. We are helping you. Sometimes the answers you need to hear aren't what you want to hear.

If a couple can't discuss ANYTHING without fear of evoking anger, communication is the problem. Explore this issue together. It's not just sex; you probably don't communicate well in other matters. If your wife never initiates sex, there is probably something you need to learn. Please change your screen name. This board learned twenty years ago that political discussions (or politically-based screen names) have no place in swinging and are not welcome here.

"Also fyi, it's not cheating when you communicate what you want." So you think. Your wife may have a different opinion.

Your screen name suits you! You don't like the tone? Too bad! Swingers generally don't like cheaters and part of your post sounds as if you're ;looking for an excuse to do so. We also don't like those who try to coerce their wife into doing something she doesn't want to do. What you clearly don't know is that swinging, while often broached by the male, is nearly always the choice of the woman. You asked questions and you got answers, from several people who have vastly more experience than a bored, married guy with a hard on. That you didn't get the answers you were looking for is evidenced by your petulent response. Keep pushing your wife and you will endanger your marriage. Better you watch swinger porn and jerk off. But, what do I know? My wife is a willing participant and we've been successfully swinging since 2003.

Let me start by saying that it sounds like you are only going to be able to have one or the other: LS or wife. That being said, what can you do to try and have the slight chance of joining the two? Same formula as most of us in the LS. Work on the big three: love, trust and communication. Keeping in mind that some (most) people are just not wired for swinging, one of the main reasons is that when the subject is broached, the partner instantly thinks 'why aren't I enough for them' or 'why are they looking for a replacement for me'. This is because there has been an erosion of love, trust, communication or a combination of all three. The place to start is to improve your communication. You need to show your partner that they can tell you ANYTHING and you won't pass judgement or run away screaming because what they said is so shocking. As the communication improves, so does the trust. As the trust improves, so does the love. Our tag line at the bottom really says it all: If you don't have to lie about sex... This is not going to happen over night, but you do have time (the rest of your life) and the WORST thing that can happen is your relationship improves (no matter how good it may or may not already be). So work on that first. Then start talking about your sexual fantasies. Do this outside of a romantic event and start slow (don't just start off with 'I want to sleep with other people' again). Find the ones you both have in common and act them out. Among other things, your wife needs to relearn to be a sexual being again. She has been a 'mom' for a long time and needs to be reminded that she is also a woman. This is something that she probably needs anyway. Start with this and see what happens. She may not ever be interested in the LS, but if you want to take a shot and try, this is the first step, and will only make your relationship better even if she isn't interested.

Before you do anything else, fix what is going on between you. Starting with communication. Why can you not have an in depth talk about your desires in the LS? Does she know you want/need her to initiate sometimes? We dealt with that one ourselves. Most think their communication with their spouse is just fine. If there is ANYTHING that the two of you can not or will not talk through to completion, I suggest that there is work to do. Proceed to Jealousy. Jealousy is a killer. Jealousy equates to fear of loss, whether or not that fear is rational. My 16 year old self still hung on in that area to some extent well into my early sixties. Once I could see it was there, which manifested as we approached the LS, I defined it as the enemy it was and acted proactively to eliminate it. In my case it was giving my bride a unilateral, unlimited , noncancelable GreenLight. In other words took an action to radically separate myself from the emotion of jealousy. This was after a few months of "Do I really want to do this? Is this wise?" internal dialog. For me/us yes it was both, with great results. Wouldn't necessarily work that way for everyone. I would suggest lots of internal self examination, be brutal in the analysis. I would suggest opening non judgmental, honest , clear and transparent communication with your wife, be gentle in this.

Communicating what you want with a take me or not attitude sounds like a bully to me. Add your stated jealousy issues to the mix...Maybe what you are not aware of is why your wife never initiates sex. As you say there is more to the story we are not aware of but you are not likely to find the validation or support you seek to proceed without your wife’s full consent here. I sincerely hope you can see the bigger picture.

You are setting yourself up with the you just have to try this mindset. I don’t think you really want to lose your marriage nor try the cheating route. Do you ever watch porn with your wife? Role play? Find some way to spice it up at home. Read more here, share with her, ask her desires. Maybe one day she will consider going to a club. Maybe not, and sometimes the fantasy is better than the reality.

Some people (most actually) just aren't cut out for swinging, and your wife may very well be one of them. It sounds like there are many hurdles between where she is now and swinging of any type, even just watching and being watched. The only sort of baby step I can think of that she might be willing to at least talk about would be attending a meet and greet. Everyone full clothed, held at a local bar or restaurant, just a chance to meet people and talk to them. If she is so opposed to the whole concept that she thinks swingers are just a bunch of nasty perverted creeps, then I doubt she will even be interested in that, because who is interested in meeting people that you already know you won't like? But, if she is of the type that is ok with others doing what works for them while she does what works for her, then she might be willing. That's going to take a lot more talk though, because the sense I get is she doesn't really trust you on this one. I suspect she might be seeing it as she is your admittance ticket in the door to get what you want, not something that you both at least have some interest in, even if that interest only goes so far as being a "safe" way to find out what those creepy, perverted swingers are really like in person. One other thing I would add is to work hard on your relationship and your sex life. Good sex begets more good sex, and when a couple has a strong relationship and a strong sex life, some fears often drop to the wayside a bit.

We’ve met hundreds....maybe thousands of people in the lifestyle over the years. Most by association....same event or party. Many chatting...texting...some we meet....some we didn’t. Some we’ve become long term friends with.....some FWB. and a smaller circle we’ve known, mixed with, socialized with and played with. We never had been asked let alone announced our ethnicity, political views, religion etc. There have been requests for HWP, smoker/non smoker, drinker/non drinker, soft/hard swap etc etc. We were never shopping for an experience.....and we’ve enjoyed many great times. We like the connection at the moment....circumstances of the meet. We greatly enjoy the Christmas gift experience....never knowing what you got....until you open the gift...... Attitude....personality....life experiences seem to define each person and couple we meet. Accents, skin tone are the spice of life.

We have a partner and all she ever wants is soft swap - we have been friends for years. Things started slowly when she and I had a bit of a fling. She would come over when my husband was working and we would touch and kiss but never get naked. I shared that I was bisexual and was interested in taking things further. We got more physical over the next year and things progressed. She asked if I would be okay if she could join my husband and I. She touches us but isn't interested in any penetration. She loves to watch us and will touch us and give oral - she says letting my husband fuck her is too far. I think it's strange because she loves playing with him, but we respect her boundary and have a great relationship.

We, meaning those in our poly family of three women and two men, are not typical even among those here on the Swingers Board. We are a very close poly family with children that have played very little outside of our family. For instance, I have had only five male sex partners in my life. I think the lesson here is to think things through and only follow convention, whether it be that of society, religion or your parents when it suits you. All of those are against the way I have arranged my sexual and family life, but having found like-minded partners I am happier, more satisfied and getting more out of life than most other people. In just about every other way I am a model of conformity, not because I want to conform, but because it fits me.