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Is it ever right for a brother and sister, both single, to play as a couple? I should say that it doesn’t bother me but I do question it. I know I have been to parties where relatives, not mine, have played. This is both coming as a couple and playing as a couple. My husband thinks it’s fine.

Long before her death, Laura and I wrote the following, Padoc. We included it in our book, which as I noted above was a failure. I excerpted it to make it easier to answer you. Mods, feel free to move this post. III. The Drive West Laura and Cynthia were leaning toward each other over the center console, a display of body language that was not lost on Laura. This was to be a long friendship. The car was humming effortlessly, the GPS set for Gallup. Soft country music, interrupted occasionally by the static of the CB radio as it overrode the CD, played in the background. The radar detectors, set to override all other communications, had been quiet for some time. They were in West Texas, between Adrian and Tucumcari. "Are we really doin' 127, Laura?" "Yes," she replied calmly, "We'll have to slow down when night falls. I thought we'd put some miles behind us before then. Would you like to speed up?" "No, I think we're okay, Sugah. TeeHee. It doesn't feel fast, unless I look at the blurry sagebrush flyin' by." "We're nowhere near the performance capabilities of this car," Laura assured her. "Are you scared?" "Not at all. Where did you learn to drive like this?" "Raul taught me in Germany, on the Autobahn. Of course, I didn't have this car then." "What did you drive?" "BMW 540i. It was a company car that wasn't being driven, so Raul assigned it to me. It wasn't as fast as this one, but you couldn't call it slow." The radar detector sang a soft slow warning. Laura hit the brakes, quickly hauling the speed down to 57 miles per hour. The beeps got louder and more frequent until they saw a police car pass them going in the opposite direction. The tone changed and beeped slower and not as loud until it stopped altogether. Laura stayed at 60. The radar detector suddenly screamed rapidly at top volume as another police car came within sight. When it passed and the signal faded away she accelerated back to 127, and reset the cruise control. "How'd you know the second cop was there?" "That's one of their tactics. One cop leads with his radar on. When he passes a likely suspect like this car, doing the speed limit, he radios back and tells the other cop. Most drivers will speed up again. The second cop flips on his radar and nails the criminal." "Why do you cruise at 127?" "The car gets really thirsty over that speed." "Wow! I just drive the speed limit." "That, Girlfriend, is like 'cleaving only unto each other' ...boring!" "I suppose so. TeeHee. Last night was a treat. I'm so glad y'all came over to talk to us. Why'd you do it?" "Y'all are cute as you can be, Girlfriend!" "Thank you, Sugah. Did y'all have swappin' in mind when you came over?" "We always have swapping in mind when we see a sexy couple. Swing partners have been rare for us." "When did you think we might want to swing?" "After we talked to y'all in the lobby. Y'all sent us a lot of subtle clues. When we went back to our seats, I bet Raul a hundred dollars we'd end up fucking you two before the night was over." "Well, I'll be damned! I admit we had hopes, too. I asked Hank if he thought y'all might swap. He said, 'I hope so! Damn! Laura's really good lookin'!' But how could you be so sure?" "Body language, Cynthia. When someone is thinking of kissing you, his gaze goes from your eyes to your lips and back again. Raul and I both noticed y'all did that but Hank was standing with his thumbs hooked in his pants pockets with his index fingers pointing at his cock, which was aimed solidly at my pussy. I may have imagined that part." "Cowboys do that, Laura. Whether they are thinkin' of fuckin' you or not." "My guess is cowboys are always thinking of fucking somebody, Cynthia. Chicken or Egg? Anyway, I subtly returned the gesture with my body, and moved my tongue along my lower lip, when he looked there. He smiled. I wasn't certain he'd caught my body language but I sure as hell caught his. He said to Raul, in the men's room, that he thinks I am really sexy. That may have put the thought in his mind." "Horseshit! You are sexy, and by that time he knew he was goin' to get in yo' pants. How'd you learn this 'body language' b'iness, anyway?" "I always tell people I have two degrees in how to pay attention. One is in Psychology and the other in Communication. In college I did some research for papers on Body Language. Y'all were quick to talk about sex, but that didn't become apparent until later, when we went for drinks." "Well, hell! Body Language is somethin' I need to learn, Sugah!" "You've already learned something. You can use Body Language to make things happen, too." "An example, please?" "Alright. When you know from watching his eyes, that a guy wants to kiss you, return the eye-to-lips gesture, move closer ... an inch or two usually works ... notice which way his head is tilted, lick your lips and tilt your head the other way ... as if you are getting your nose out of the way? ... If the situation is right, he'll kiss you. I did that with Hank on the dance floor. It worked like a charm!" "I noticed. TeeHee. Raul didn't need body language to kiss me." "Maybe you just didn't realize it. People use body language when they don't even know they're doing it. Raul had known since our meeting in the lobby that you had been thinking about kissing him." "Alright. I'll plead guilty to that, but I need another example." "How about something non-sexual? When you ask somebody a question, and you want them to say 'yes' nod your head affirmatively. If you want them to say 'no' shake your head sideways. Be really subtle, though. It doesn't work every time." "Alright. I can see how that might work. Let's get back to sex." "Okay. It's not just looking at lips, but looking with 'I wanna fuck you' in your eyes. You're very good at that part. The thought crossed my mind in the lobby that you may be bi." "Lotsa practice, Sugah. My best friend in high school and I had sex together when we didn't have a cowboy handy. Was last night your first kiss with a lady?" "Well, my aunts kissed on the lips, but differently. Teehee. I have to admit, though, it was the cum sharing kiss that got me. I love to do outrageous slutty things when we swing. Raul loves it!" "So does Hank. I learned that the night we left Houston. Teach me some more body language, or turn up the air conditioning." "When a person is kissed, or even hugged, but isn't really comfortable with it, they hold their bodies apart, touching only at the chest and lips. When a woman is kissed by a fellow she'd like to fuck, she nestles into his embrace and presses her body against him. Hank got an instant hard-on. I was pretty sure then that I'd win my bet. TeeHee." "TeeHee. Raul did the same thing! I guess that means I reacted predictably." "Why am I not surprised? TeeHee. My husband is definitely a man." "Yeah, I noticed that, too. TeeHee. What else did we unknowin'ly tell y'all?" "Well, when we left the Performing Arts Center and walked to the bar, you walked with Raul and I with Hank. We had already swapped spouses. That told us y'all were comfortable being away from each other and had no jealousy issues. Did you think that was accidental?" "I guess I did. And when we got to the bar, I sat with Raul and you with Hank! Did y'all engineer that, too? I thought it was only a happy coincidence!" "You're a quick study, Cynthia. We even walked over to y'all in the PAC so I would end up face-to-face with Hank and you with Raul. Both times. When we met to go for drinks, we had only to turn toward the exit, walk out and the couples were swapped." "I don't quite understand." "We looked at the way y'all were standing. You were on Hank's right, so Raul offered me his right arm so he would end up facing you and I Hank when we got there. Had y'all been standing the other way, he would have offered me his left arm." "Okay... What might we have done that would have told y'all we weren't interested?" "Right! Good question! Most vanilla couples would have gone to a lot of trouble to turn the situation around so they could walk with, and sit with, their own spouse. I would have thought I'd have lost my bet with Raul at that point. But y'all didn't. When Raul offered you his arm, you took it. That was a good sign. Y'all were comfortable with the situation." "Well, I'll be fucked!" "Absolutely... you were and very likely will be again. TeeHee." "I hope so! How'd y'all get interested in swapping?" "Strangely enough, we met an American couple in Germany who offered. It was our second date so we didn't accept. Later, we agreed we'd both wanted to but we felt we needed to talk to each other first." "Did y'all have sex after they offered?" "Well, yes, but we would have anyway. We had already had sex the night before, on our first date." "We did, too. We haven't stopped since. We both had something of a history. TeeHee. I first got laid when I was fifteen." "Okay... I was eight." "Do you mean 'eaten'?" "Well, that too, TeeHee, but no, e-i-g-h-t, as in eight years old." "Ohmigawd! Were you raped?" "Legally, I guess. But it was with my brother. He was ten at the time. I was pretty cooperative. It felt good even the first time. I found out later I didn't climax, but loved it!" "Did your parents teach y'all sex education?" "No. Never a word until I started having periods, then just the biological stuff." "How did y'all learn to do it?" "Well, ... okay, Girlfriend, ... I'm about to tell you something that only Raul knows... has ever known..." "Oh, my! I'm honored!" "Stuart, my brother, knew a man, maybe one of his youth sports coaches 'cause he called him "Coach," who found out how little Stuart knew about sex. Coach must have decided to teach him." "Ohmigawd! Was Coach a pervert?" "I suppose most folks would call him that, but he never physically touched Stuart, and he refused to meet me. I have no idea who he was and no way of knowing what his motivation may have been. I guess his 'kink' was teaching, not doing. I just knew his ideas were a lot of fun. How about you, Girlfriend, tell me your story?" "Well, I grew up on a small ranch not far from Houston, so I don't remember not knowin' how babies are made. I was aware when my mom was pregnant with Marilyn. The horses and cattle did it pretty-much the same way humans did, or so I thought. I was junior rodeoin' ...runnin' barrels. I had a cowgirl's body even then." "I'll bet! It's still pretty spectacular, Girlfriend." "Thanks! My tits are bigger... kids, y'know... but I've stayed in good shape... never smoked... If I can exercise with my sons, like Karate classes, I do, otherwise I go to the gym when the boys practice sports." "We go to the gym,too. But I'm a city girl. What does 'run in barrels' mean?" "Oh! It's really called 'barrel racinG', Sugah, and the slang's not 'run-in-barrels,' it's 'runninG barrels.' Sorry about my elided 'Gs.' It's a rodeo event for cowgirls. You ever been to a rodeo?" "No, I can't say I have." "There's a big one comin' up in Tulsa next month. Wanna go?" "That'll be fun! Raul worked on a ranch when he was younger." "Yeah. He told me about his first bull ride. Teehee. There are three barrels set up in a triangle, the first two are 90 feet apart and the third one is 105 feet from the first two. You start and race like hell to the one on your right, circle it, run to the one on your left, circle it, circle the most distant one then beat shit back to the finish line. It's a three-leaf clover design. Cowgirls race against the clock, not each other." "On a horse?" "Yes, of course on a horse, Laura, otherwise it'd be a foot race and it wouldn't be for cowgirls, would it? You are a city girl, aren't you?" "TeeHee, I just told you that!" "TeeHee. Yes, you did. Anyway, I was barrel racin' down in Killeen... doin' pretty well, in fact, when a bronc rider ... do I need to define that?" "I think I can figure that one out. A cowboy, right?" "Yeah... A cowboy who rides wild horses in rodeos... probably on the prowl for barrel racers... They do that ... I was curryin' my horse in the paddocks when he told me he admired my horse's confirmation and the way I rode. He was cute as hell... a nice tan, cowboy's body... sky blue eyes... innocent smile..." "I know the type. HeeHee. Good breeding stock. How old was he?" "I didn't ask. I'd say mid-twenties, maybe younger. I was fifteen... already 5'7" ... lookin' good, too... wearin' makeup to match my western outfit, which included a big-ass buckle I'd won runnin' barrels. He could see I was a real cowgirl, but he couldn't get past lookin' at my body to see how old I was. He didn't seem interested in my age." "Did you tell him?" "No, I don't reckon I did. I was prepared to lie if he asked. TeeHee. But he didn't. He took me to a dark area behind a haystack and kissed me. I'd been kissed a couple of times before by an eighth grader but it wasn't like that! Whooie, girl!...I went from 'pretty warm' to 'hot'! I knew I was gonna fuck him if I got the chance. TeeHee." "Did y'all do it behind the haystack?" "TeeHee. No. He took me to his pickup. In the truck he kept layin' his kisses on me and pettin' me everywhere while he was takin' my jeans off. When they were gone, he ate my pussy. I took to it right away. When he asked if he could fuck me, I jumped up on the seat on all fours and turned my ass to him. He was gentle and gave it to me slow. It just felt delicious when he slid into me." "It didn't hurt?" "Nope! I'd masturbated with a sawed-off cow horn for a coupla years. I shared it with my girlfriend when she stayed overnight. I reckon we took our own cherries. TeeHee." "Doggie? the first time?" "Yep! I thought that was how it was done. Remember? Horses? TeeHee. He doggied me for awhile then finally turned me around, kissed me, and showed me how to do missionary. I liked that a lot better... and I had liked doggie plenty! Suddenly I was a sexual being. I intended to stay that way!" "Birth control?" "He used condoms... good thing... teehee... birth control wasn't on my mind. The most important thing was gettin' that cock inside me." "By the time bull ridin' was over, he'd fucked me twice. I had to hurry to meet my family to go home and my horse wasn't even loaded yet. I got dressed, fixed my makeup, got my horse out of the stall and into the trailer. I've always wondered who the hell that cowboy was... shore was good lookin'! If I was to run into him, I'd ask Hank if I could fuck him. Wouldn't need rubbers this time! Your turn, Sugah." "My introduction was slower. Coach would give Stuart instructions. He started with us hugging each other for long periods of time, then kissing, then nudity, and, of course, nude kissing. When Coach sent him home with detailed instruction on how to do cunnilingus, it got interesting. Stuart loved my taste and I loved him tasting. The next lesson was sitting on his face. I got really fond of that! Quickly! I told him what felt best. He complied and practiced. "Y'all didn't know about the incest taboo?" "Hell, we didn't know anything until Coach started our instructions. He told Stuart to keep it secret or he'd get in a lot of trouble." "How long did this take?" "Hmmm I'd say we were doing 69 pretty ably six months after we started and having intercourse after a year, or so. In the meantime, of course, we practiced what we'd learned after school whenever we could. Stuart had baseball practice on Wednesdays and I had Girl Scouts on Mondays. We were good kids! Always had the chores done and dinner on the stove by the time our parents came home. Both straight A students, too." "So far we'd loved Coach's suggestions and always looked forward to new assignments. We'd rush to the bedroom after school to do our 'homework.' Stuart would report back to Coach and ask him questions. I never knew where they talked or when. Stuart refused to tell me anything about Coach. I think that may have been Coach's motivation ... where he got his jollys... hearing Stuart's stories." "How long did this go on?" "I'd say about three years after we started fucking. We got pretty good at it. I gave pretty good head, too. You might have noticed I still love the taste of cum. That started when Stuart was twelve." "Yeah, me too. TeeHee. How often do you see your brother? How long has it been since you fucked him? "Well, this is the tough part. He's dead. Shot himself when he was fourteen." "Oh, No! Why?" "Now, that question will take some time to answer, Girlfriend." "I've cancelled my CIA assignment to fuck the Russian Ambassador, Sugah. What happened to Stuart?" "We got caught. 'Flagrante Delicto,' as it were." "Oh, my god! By whom?" "My mother, who never came home before 6:00." "What were y'all doin'? "I was riding Stuart's chin, about to come... I was making some noise, which is probably why we never heard her enter the house and why she came to the bedroom, to see why I was moaning. Needless to say, she was shocked. So were we." "How old were you?" "I was twelve. When I started menstruating, Coach told Stuart to stop having intercourse or I might get pregnant. We had fallen into the habit of him bringing me off orally, then I'd suck him off. If she'd been a half hour later, we'd have been dressed. Doing our chores." "How bad was it?" "Much worse for Stuart than for me. Even though I'd been on top of him, she blamed it all on 'male perversion.' I was not punished at all. He caught hell! Mom and Dad talked it over and decided Stuart should be beaten with a belt. They had never even spanked us before. They whipped him in the garage." "Stuart admitted to full responsibility. They never asked how long we'd been at it. If he had said, 'about four years' they'd really have freaked!" "During the beating, which Dad delivered while Mom asked questions, their main focus was to find out how Stuart learned to 'abuse' me. He told them 'from other kids' but they wouldn't accept that. Still, no amount of punishment would make him change his story. He told me he had come close to giving up Coach to stop the beatings and was really scared he might. I believe Stuart respected... even loved... Coach." "You can't fault her for not believin' him. You gotta admit not many kids know about ridin' a man's face, Sugah." "Stuart stuck to his 'other kids' story and took two more beatings. Work was still more important than being home in the afternoons so I was told to stay at a neighbor's house after school until Mom or Dad came home. They never told the neighbors the reason for their request, so I went over and said I had some housework to do (which was true) and went home. That was the only time we made love. It was pretty intense for a twelve year old and a fourteen year old. I remember it fondly. I'll never forget it." Laura sniffed back a tear. Cynthia reached for Laura's hand. They sat silently, listening to George Strait sing, "All My Exes Live in Texas," for the twentieth time. "Stuart got another beating that night. I begged them to stop, but they kept asking where he had learned 'that stuff' and using the belt." "They also added another punishment. Stuart's room was bigger than mine, so they gave it to me, his 'victim' and moved him to mine." "The next afternoon, I came home to find Stuart on the kitchen floor. His .22 rifle was beside him and there was a lot of blood. There was a pencil, too. I think he used it to push the trigger. He was unconcious but breathing. There was a note beside him. It read, 'Mom and Dad, please forgive me, but I can't take another beating. I'm so sorry for what I did to Laura. I love you both. -Stuart.'" "I called my Mom at work, who called Dad and the police. The bullet had entered Stuart's skull and traveled around the inside. He died in the hospital five days later." "I'm so sorry, Laura. That must have been horrible for you!" "It was bad for everybody. My parents concocted a bullshit story that he'd accidentally shot himself while cleaning his rifle. I've always been saddened that my parents thought it more important to avoid embarrassment than to surrender their souls to grieving for their only son." "My mom never saw the note. The police took it as evidence, but they showed it to Dad. She blamed him because of the beatings. He blamed her for insisting he do it. They agreed the beatings had caused Stuart's suicide. They were divorced less than a year later, and haven't spoken a civil word to each other since. They were married for over twenty years. Dad was an architect. He moved to Denver to take a job. Mom kept building her business. I lived with her until I left for college." "Where are they now, Sugah?" "They're retired and live in Oklahoma. They followed Raul and me to Tulsa after the boys were born. They're careful to ensure that they never see each other." "Do you think Stuart killed himself to stop the beatings?" "Not a chance, Cynthia. I'm sure the beatings were bad enough, and the heartbreak that came along with learning the two people he loved most hated him so much. I think the reason was that he was afraid he would crack. I think he wanted to make sure he could never give up Coach. "Why do you think that?" "He as much as told me so, that last afternoon. He asked me to promise I'd never tell anybody that Coach existed if anything happened to him. Keeping the secret was easy; my parents never asked me anything about the incest. Except for Raul, and now you, I've kept that promise. Now I realize Stuart was planning for 'something' to happen the next day." "Whose fault do you think it was, Sugah?" "Good question, Cynthia. Everybody's. Definitely Coach, for using us to satisfy his own needs, whatever they might have been. My parents, for never preparing us for such a situation, and teaching us nothing about sex. Myself, for not realizing how much Stuart was hurting and not recognizing his call for help that last afternoon. Stuart himself, for taking the easy way out. I'm sad to this day to admit that I was happy about getting the bigger bedroom." Laura parked in the parking lot of the El Rancho Motel in Gallup, shut down the engine, turned to Cynthia and sobbed. Cynthia held her in her arms and cried with her.

Holy Crap! What an awful story!! How did the parents manage to live with THAT?? How did Laura? She must have felt tremendous guilt. Those folks would NOT have been candidates for parents of the year.

I think you'd be quite surprised at how often sibling sex exists among brother and sister. I was surprised myself. My late wife and her brother did it for years after school and before their parents arrived home from work. One day, her mom arrived early due to a power outage at work and caught them flagrante delecto. The discovery resulted in daily beatings of her brother. Laura was not punished, seen by her parents as the victim despite her having told them she participated voluntarily. It all ended with her brother's suicide. Her parents blamed Stuart's death on the physical beating. Laura thought the beatings were severe but the real reason was the hatred that came from the two people he loved the most. His parents concocted a lie. (He shot himself accidentally while cleaning a .22 rifle he had gotten for his thirteenth birthday.) Stuart left a suicide note, a letter of apology for the terrible thing he'd done to his sister. I included the episode in my first novel, which I've withdrawn because it was a terrible book. The most surprising inputs were from people who, after reading my novel, told me that sibling sex had been a part of their childhood. The women, like Laura, were willing participants. I never heard from anyone who claimed to have been raped.

Merry Christmas Lioness. I think you once said that one of your friends had a brother that swings, it was on a post where I said Mike and I met our cousin. I know it’s not the same thing. I at first thought second cousins were wrong. After we talked it went well. Were the siblings brothers or sisters or a brother and sister? Do they play separately or together. If you are playing with brothers or sisters I think you are having some good fun. If they are a brother and sister my first thought is it’s weird. My further thought would be it shouldn’t bother you, it’s their decision. For me i couldn’t have sex with my brother. I do sometimes wonder if I had friends that did it.

Sexual morality is best decided by those involved.

We have great four way connections with the couples who we play with, but more than half of the playing with our group is threesomes and alone play. The simple reason is it is easier to arrange and allows for more play. Tonight, as a matter of fact, I'm getting their kids and taking them and our daughter to dinner and our house so my wife can have a quick session with them.

I wouldn't DO anything to her. I'd try to discover what gives her pleasure and then hopefully share in her pleasure. Hint: Swinging is basically run by the women, they set the limits and they tend to choose the partners and they decide when or if to have sex. No one DOES my wife!! They share HER, they meet HER needs or SHE walks away. OP has a LOT to learn.

She loves to see me sucking a guy

I have to say, if my wife does something with someone else she does not do with me, I would be unhappy. I don't think it is fair to say you "Should" or "should" not feel anything. Feelings are feelings.