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Thank you all for your responses...I shouldn't have to keep looking over my shoulder, yes he should know better and if this kind of stuff continues it will be over for us. I always say to him how lucky we are to be able to share this, don't blow it.

The good news is that prudent swingers are taking a Covid break. The bad news is that your fiancé is out of control and will not adhere to your limits. This issue will recur. Do you want to continue swinging? It sounds like you are going along to get along. Your fiancé seems consumed with swinging and swinging on his terms. It doesn’t appear that he will comply with your limits. You have some decisions to make. Give him a hall pass and let him do whatever he wants or you can find a new partner who can work withIn your limits if you want to swing. Just my take. I’m no Dear Abby, but I am married for 35 years.

Yes the same getting to know people makes it better and more fun and safer!!

A remark on vaccination and public health. It is a fact that individuals can exclude themselves from certain public health measures. Such exclusions can be for cause, for example a more important medical condition or some religious grounds. In most other cases, there is a negative incentive to promote compliance with the norm. Drivers who choose to not use seat belts or to text whilst driving are subject to fines. Failure to clear debris or snow from a public walkway in front of one's home is subject to a fine. And so on. Vaccination is somewhat unique. Because the action in any other context would be labelled a criminal act (injecting a foreign substance into my/your body), we have come to rely on an opt in approach. That in turn depends on the decision being even more informed than the decision about whether or not to wear a seat belt. Part of the strategy is normal pediatric care--immunizations are scheduled and aligned with another public service, namely school attendance. In the adult world, immunizations are left optional for a variety of reasons. Autonomy is deemed a higher priority than the public good. Even Medicare, which is a federal program, gets about a 50% vaccination rate for all beneficiaries each year for the annual influenza vaccine. There are ongoing studies that model potential lives saved is the vaccination rate would rise from 50->higher->100% among Medicare beneficiaries. COVID is a much bigger deal than influenza. The case fatality rate continues to be estimated as ten-fold higher by people whose credentials go beyond Facebook membership. The transmissibility is at least as high as influenza, and again most experts believe it is much higher. As professionals who work at the intersection of public health and critical care, we do indeed wonder at--read "are mystified by"--by individuals who decline to be vaccinated absent a clear medical contraindication. While you are correct that the choice to (not) be vaccinated somehow reflects a personal decision scheme, those decision schemes often seem irrational. We have heard a variety of statements along the lines of "the preservative causes autism" (influenza vaccines can be had preservative-free); "I know three people who were paralyzed by the vaccine" (really? please share their names); "the vaccine gave me the flu the last time I got it" (these are killed virus or component molecules); "it's too expensive" (it's free with every health plan we know, and the out of pocket cost is about $35 if you pay full freight at the CVS); "Bill Gates is implanting microchips" (I won't dignify that with a response, but we have heard this excuse more than once) and so on. Mostly, it's people not wanting the temporary discomfort of the vaccination event. As for the potential that a virus might cause harm, in thse exceedingly rare instances, there is a federal no-fault compensation program, see https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html Yes , we are vaccinated against pneumococcus, zoster, hepatitis B, annual influenza, Td, and we did indeed have measles as kids and have the titers to prove it. If we were age-allowable, we would have taken the HPV vaccine (we are over 45...if you are 45 or younger, look into it) We will participate in COVID vaccine trials if allowed, and will line up for the vaccine if we are either not allowed into the trials or we are later told that we did not convert (likely the result of getting the placebo). In our view, with the exception of Td (tetanus is not a highly transmissible disease) our decisions are as much for the common good as they are a personal good. In our opinion, the public good is vastly more important than the personal benefit; for this reason, we advise, endorse, and promote universal vaccination plans with opt outs limited to medical or religious exemptions. We know others will disagree. We hope they will state their case without resorting to the autonomy ("I just don't want to") or civil liberty ("The Constitution says I don't have to do this") argument. Or, for that matter, the absurd Bill-Gates-is-implanting-microchips comment.

Probably doesn’t know because they just joined today and this is their first post. Seems odd to post a story like this as your first post, IMO.

Too Young to Go Steady

njbm has some good advice. I would get this woman out of your lives right now, as long as your BF is talking and texting and trying to screw her there is going to be continuing drama.

A brief pause in the conversation to remark on the civility and thoughtfulness that has gone into adamgunn's remark and into so many above. It is a feature of this board--and of the LS community that chooses to participate--that we can have discussion without polarization on a broad mix of topics. We value our LS friends and the LS community for a variety reasons, many of which do not involve playtime. The notion of responsibility--personal and for our intimates and for our brethren--is part of who you are and who we are.

Hello, many of you play on first dates and many of you don’t. My wife is adamant about not playing on first date, in fact she prefers to wait until after 3-4 meetings. We had discuss this at length when we first got started 3 yrs ago and we didn’t want to just jump into bed with total strangers. We wanted to get to know them a little, primarily as a means to understand their risk propensity. I am finding that a lot of couples are not willing to wait 3-4 meetings, what are your thoughts and recommendations?

I found this site quite recently. Glad that I did. It makes me happy to know there's others out there who live this kind of life. But as the title says, I have a little concern if anyone is willing to help out. As I write this, my wife and I have been together for a total of ten years. We have two kids. Years ago I gave my wife the OK that she could have sex with another guy as long as she was open and honest about it with me. She's a romantic. She didn't want flings or one night stands but an actual relationship. Enter my wife's friend Pauline and her husband August. They too have two kids of their own. Turns out Pauline and August had tried their hand at swinging but found out it wasn't for them. There was an attraction between August and Angel that Pauline and me noticed and encouraged. We made it clear to them we did not mind and were OK with it. They became a 'faithful couple'. Aside from me and Pauline, they have no other partners. We also didn't have threesomes. Sometimes Angel would spend the night at Pauline and August's and sometimes August would spend the night at our place. Pauline and me also grew close. We have sex with each other but we are not as romantically attached as compared to our respective spouses. They were 'together' for two years when we made the decision to cohabit in one house. We became a household with four parents and four kids. The four kids get along fine and we the adults come off as really good uncles and aunts. And yes they have been taught that Angel and August's relationship is different from the rest. Angel and August though act as much like husband and wife as we do. Months ago Angel and August told us it was time they have a baby. They wanted a fruit of their love and even said they wanted three. Pauline and me were both happy to know they've come to that decision. The former more so than I ever thought possible. Pauline really loved the idea of my wife getting pregnant with her husband's child and joined them in the first of many threesomes to assist in the impregnation. Pauline didn't fuck August but she would suck him hard. But she surprised everyone when she kissed and licked Angel's pussy to get her wet. (Neither she nor my wife have ever hinted at being bi and beyond that, nothing sexual has happened between them.) Pauline would further help by guiding August's cock inside Angel's wet pussy. She would then talk dirty to them and urge August on to cum and knock up Angel. My wife soon started feeling nauseous and vomiting. Pauline and me brought her three home pregnancy tests but it was a doctor's appointment with August that confirmed she was carrying August's baby. I don't know just how to explain the feeling but there's is just something wonderful seeing my wife's belly grow with another man's child. My wife is now 33 weeks pregnant with hers and August's third child. Our kids know who is the father of the unborn. They know they're only half-siblings but they're excited and simply love running their little hands over Angel's growing belly. Now here lies my current conundrum. A friend of ours actually brought it up as a joke and we feel stupid to have not considered this at all. So pardon me for having to ask this and if this comes off as a stupid question. Whose last name do we give the baby and who signs the birth certificate as the father, me or August? I mean I am most willing to give the baby my name and write my name on the certificate. But so is August. I actually think August should be it.

Several reasons. The most important is the concept that among us we are all parents to the children regardless of maternity or paternity. The children call us women/men "mom/dad" or by our first names when they need to distinguish. We women thought it was especially important not to have the guys discerning paternity, but it became clear immediately that they care for the children regardless of who the father is. Same for the last names. I didn't change my name when I got married. With my first I didn't know during my pregnancy who of the two guys in our family was the father so I decided to use my last name, as did Clair although we knew hubby was the father. (As a matter of fact, I was certain that the father of my child was Red but it turned out to be hubby.) And it's the flip side of the coin with the kids. Although they will know who their bio father is, I wanted to set the precedent from the beginning that they will never give either man who is lovingly raising them any "Your not my daddy!" shit.

Yes. For some women, I put a pillow under their butt. For a woman whose vaginal open is more toward her south pole, coitus with her on-top is more comfortable.

Couples I have helped have taken this approach. I'm grateful the first couple had done their homework and explained how this all worked.

We look for people who are willing to play on the first date. If that doesn't happen we don't mind meeting a second time but we make it clear that we are looking to play. There is no 3rd or 4th date.

I was right with you until you the part about COVID-19 being "... a much bigger deal than annual influenza." Influenza has killed tens of millions of people globally. The so-called "Spanish" strain was the deadliest pandemic in recorded human history; estimated to have killed more than 50 million people worldwide (this, at a time when the entire global population was a fraction of what it is today.) It killed more people, by far, than the bubonic plague, also known as the "Black Death", something so catastrophic it left an indelible mark on western civilization that we still refer to it some seven hundred years later. Influenza, even in its so-called "less severe" form, kills many hundreds of thousands of people globally every year. The National Institute of Health estimates between 300,000 and 640,000 die annually from influenza, and influenza-related, illnesses. Note: Those deaths are occurring WITH the presence of an annual flu vaccination program. Read that last sentence again. COVID-19, in contrast, has killed an estimated 500,000 people globally--significantly less than a "bad year" for annual influenza, and it doesn't even register in a comparison to the Spanish flu pandemic. True, COVID-19 appears to be easier to transmit from human-to-human contact than is influenza. However, this does not equate to a higher rate of mortality. In fact, current statistical analysis points in the opposite direction. In terms of the general population, the CDC's own statistics overwhelmingly indicate COVID-19 is far less deadly than originally thought. Within the US, the CDC estimates there are millions of COVID-19 cases that have gone undetected because the carriers were either asymptomatic or only mildly so. The mortality rate is remarkably low for younger, healthier people. However, the disease is particularly severe on those people over age 65 in the presence of at least one morbidity factor. COVID-19 is a serious disease and rightfully deserves our attention. However, the original intent of the public health policy promoted by government health care officials was to "flatten the curve". Clearly, that mission has been accomplished. Unfortunately, the entire COVID-19 public discourse has taken on political "us versus them" overtones and the policies of various states and agencies have morphed into things that appear more as "political statements" than as sound public health actions derived from science.

We are quite willing to have a first date without the possibility of playing; we've often done that. If we knew there was no chance of playing on the second date, the couple would have to be off the charts attractive for us to continue the relationship. We're not dating back in the sixties, and we all know we aren't virgins. Waiting till the third date (or after) seems a little old style for us. Not saying there's anything wrong with the way you want to engage, for us it would be a dealbreaker though.

There are different levels of knowing. Since we live in a poly family with kids, it's hard to hide everything. People know that we all live together on a large property with a large old house and a guest quarters. People can and do assume what they want, from just a convenient living arrangement to everyone being intimate. The kids schools know some things, our doctors and our parents (because of the grandchildren) know more. We live in a liberal part of the country, corporations have a respectful "live and let live" policy, and since we otherwise behave normally and conservatively, no one cares.

I think it will depend on the laws of your state or country. Since both of you are married, i think the default is your last name since your wife carries yours (i assume). Since you are accepting, if I'm in your shoes, I will let the baby use your name to avoid all the trouble your wife might experience because of this. There are some places I know that if a married woman uses a last name for her baby other than hers or her husband, they will automatically consider the father in the document and the mother as in common law relationship, and separated from the original husband. It could only be in paper but that is how the govt will treat you onwards (which will impact your taxes, properties, etc). If you want it to be simpler, try exploring Coupler's suggestion if it is legally possible in your place. In my case, it is easier. My SO, the partner who I lived with, and I are not married but my child's last name with him uses his. If ever I will have a child with my bf, I will put him as the father because that is his wish being single. Last name to be used is my bf's. There will be some paper work to be done afterwards to correct the status if I wish it or we can try a different arrangement while raising the baby. It is not that complicated than if you are married.

mmm wow that is the best, I love the same thing. Locking eyes with bf as other is giving it to me all smiling and happy girl

As you know, I/we in our poly family have been there, done that and it has been good for us adults and the children. The mother's. Neither, put down "father unknown".

As it is presented by you, I would say that he should know better. I am hesitant to say more because this ,so far, is one side of the story.

I don't want to start an argument, but only to say that different people view this differently. I have children that I would do anything for including kill or give my life, but I also would have absolutely no problem having an abortion if the circumstances called for it. Admittedly I've never had one, but before I knew them both Clair and Lora have, and they view it the same way - a fetus is not a person. I can see the argument against aborting in the eighth or ninth month in most circumstances, but cannot accept that a single cell, a fertilized egg, is a human being. It is one of those "where to draw the line" questions that doesn't have a simple answer because it doesn't depend solely on gestational age. Rather than argue about the issue in extreme, it would be great if with facts and rational discussion, somehow it could be worked out.

I am constantly amazed that we, as a society, have forgotten that responsibility for our brethren is the complement of freedom and liberty. “Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

Engines revved, just waiting for the light to turn green

Wrong again, that's the Fifth Amendment. If you ever get in trouble, don't represent yourself

Ready to rumble when it’s safe.

Just young and educated and base my judgment on science not on politics. American rights are curtailed by many laws. Just look at all the freedoms you give up when you get in a car. Do you stop at a stop sign? Do you drive 150mph? Wait that’s a red light ahead, screw that I have rights.

Am I missing something? Wuhan? You didn’t contract a city? I bet you didn’t get Kung Flu either. You certainly made this post political and claiming your rights as an American. What about the sensibility of not harming others? I just wonder if you wear a mask in public? Pants? Do you use a seatbelt? Yes do what you wish but don’t subject others to your political statements

Formatting, dude! Your post is very hard to read. TLDR; guy in his early 20's goes on vacation with his girlfriend, tells her he's been unfaithful and as a result she has a series of sexual encounters under his nose. They seem to argue quite a bit about it. My advice: You have a stormy relationship, full of drama. Is this really something you want to live with for the rest of your life?

Wonder if testosterone or estrogen levels are down? Any studies? When I was young (1970s, early ‘80s), getting laid was heavenly. Then herpes, AIDS came about. As comedian Eddie Murphy said, what’s next, you put your dick in and it explodes? Covid 19 is not encouraging for kissing, etc. Grim.

COVID-19 is the latest in a constant series of fear mongering enterprises: Y2K, Anthrax, West Nile Virus, SARS, Bird Flu, Ecoli, the 2008 Financial Crisis/Great Recession; Swine Flu, BP oil spill, the Mayan Calendar, North Korea (now, that one is realistic), Ebola, ISIS and Russia. Nearly every year. I'm worried about the little boy who cried "Wolf" too often.

I will always kiss my wife, regardless of where she's had her mouth. I love her and if she's just sucked another guy dry, I'll kiss her and say good girl.

At first it was some girls I knew in college and their friends. I had told my fiancé and at first he was angry. At the time nobody else in our everyday life knew. My college friends live hours away, so nobody near us knew. We have since married and my husband has brought his best friend, who was his best man into our swinging life. At first I was very hesitant but I was the one who started us in this. I was honest with my husband about not wanting our friend in our bed. I said I was more interested in the women who have joined us. He said I never pushed a guy away. We have since had a few mfm threesomes with our friend. I was surprised my husband wanted this. As far as I know he is the only one in our everyday life who knows.

We use condoms religiously (I love using that word in regard to our hobby) if we play at Trapeze. Otherwise, our vetting process has proven better than the governments and we go bareback with select friends. Our condom use has decreased as we've refined our selection process over the years. Also, we are past reproductive age as are most couples we meet so, other than fear of disease, there is no real reason to require their use. Sex with friends is better bare.

People interested in playing bareback are not rare, sooner or later you will run into it. I think it's best to just let them know up front that it's a possibility for him but not for you since there is still some risk of pregnancy. I'm sure they don't want you to be pregnant any more than you don't want to be pregnant!! If you want to bareback too, then I'd look into some of the other birth control methods that were mentioned. Like anything in life, it's a calculated risk, both in terms of pregnancy and STD. Some people are perfectly fine with a 1 in 1,000 chance of something bad happening, while others are still petrified at a 1 in 1,000,000 chance. You just need figure out where you are on that scale on those issues, determine the range of your comfort zone, and then figure out what your options are to keep you in that happy place.

I've never had doubts of my sexuality. During an evening of swinging it was hard to avoid encountering semen somewhere. I just never worried about it. When I kissed my wife, I was more interested in expressing how much I loved her, not that she'd just swallowed another fellow's load. There is nothing I wouldn't give to be able to kiss her just one more time.

We have only played a few times and at first it wasn't even in the game plan to use protection. Prior to getting married I had sex with a few guys and though I had been on birth control for other reasons I would say protection was a sometimes thing. With my husband of course it was never an issue for us. After having kids we were both fixed so I really didn't have much experience, especially in recent years, with condoms. Swinging wasn't even in my vocabulary till last year. Bareback until then was riding a horse without a saddle. My first swap experience wasn't planned and until that point when we both realized that this was happening and he asked if I was on birth control, he was already in me, that I thought about what if. It wasn't until we were at our only house party that it became an issue. I was with someone and he asked me to put a condom on him. I have to say it was a mood buster and I felt like a spaz trying to open one up and get it on him. I did see everyone was using them, so I imagine it is what is done.

As someone who plays bareback almost half the time, I have never put much thought about the age thing but we have unwittingly done what Angelkin said. Most of our bareback partners are older. What the other posters said are certainly true in a logical and reasonable way, but I am afraid my thought process is simpler. We don't have kids, and there is definitely some truth to facing our own mortality. Whether it's true or not, we have the impression that older swingers are a bit wiser and have more experience in choosing partners. Luckily for us, we have never caught any STIs (knock on wood).

At 46, we're not there yet, but I can see that being true for us too. Once your kids are grown and established on their own, your house is paid for, your career is well established and retirement is something you are starting to think about, and all the other day to day concerns those in their middle age have are starting to drop away, then it would seem like less of a risk. If something did happen, then you aren't having to deal with everything else along with that too. I also think that perception of risk fades with time on just about anything. You still know it's there, but have accepted it. Someone making their 200th skydiving jump doesn't perceive the risk in the same way as someone making their first. There may be a with age comes wisdom factor too. Personally, I think the general perception around STD's is 90% based on propaganda. Much of society tends to think any STD means your junk is going to turn a weird shade of green and fall off two days later, while the truth is, for most, you're going to go to the doctor, get a pill, and be all fixed up in a few days just like you would for most other things. There are some big exceptions to that of course, like HIV, but I think as people age they start to see through the hype and put things in the proper perspective. As SW_PA put it above, if that doesn't get you, something else will.

My dad taught me "What is good for the goose is good for the gander". And yes, that's about as old and as corny as it gets. But, as I remember it, every time he brought that phrase up it had to do with some man expecting his wife to behave differently than he did. SO, my comment has nothing to do with the virtues of kissing my lover after she's sucked another man off. The point is simply this, if you expect your wife to kiss you after you go down on her and/or another woman and see it as sensual and erotic then you shouldn't never hesitate to kiss her after she's sucked you or another guy; something she no doubt finds equally sensual and erotic

Kissing my wife is not a fetish. I'll do it any time for any reason. Even for no reason at all.