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Rule #1: If he has to advertise himself as a Dom, you can be certain he isn't. Lol

There's a lot going on here. I agree with people who are seeing that it isn't about the swinging, it's just the salt in the wound. A lot of young people have difficult feelings about their teenage years with their parents. His seem justified. The bit about not being together much around the holidays really stung. He seems to have figured this out, too. That it isn't really about the swinging. He's just coming to grips with *why* you weren't around and feels like he was even less important than he thought. There is no easy fix for this, but he is going through stages of processing what he's learned and his feelings will likely change further. Keep loving him. Couples counseling for the two of you might not be the worst idea, either, just to help you both talk to each other about what you've learned here and make sure the two of *you* don't spend years with unspoken anger.

I hope that all three find a place to accept each other and love each other. It may take time. I am not a therapist at ALL, but I am a father. So, take this with a grain of salt. He's 23. he's spent the last two plus years in isolation of sorts. Connections are frazzled in a lot of relationships. The future seems uncertain. The economy is having difficulty. A 20 something is dealing with a lot of unknowns and a lot of dysfunction. I don't know about him, specifically, but I think he's scared. He is acting out and maybe, just maybe, the parents swinging has given him the catalyst he needed to lash out. But, I'm guessing it isn't THE reason. I talk to a lot of other parents, our children are in the same age range, 20-28 or so and they are struggling and don't know where to place their anger, frustration and sadness. Therapy might be really useful. Love will also help. If it was me, I'd have clear boundaries about how each person can express themselves, Mom, Dad and Son. My heart goes out to you all.

It's still too soon, give him more time.

we talked today

This really seems to be less about your swinging and more about his sense of how he was raised. He clearly feels he did not get the affection he wanted. As this comes as a complete surprise to y'all, it sounds like he did not talk about it. He also sounds like he is responding to the shock that his parents are not who he thought they were. He is hurt and this leads to anger. I am not sure that he hates either of you, but he is responding to strong emotions and they are coming out as anger. This is a hard situation, and not how you would have liked him to find out. And, your marriage is your primary relationship. He is 23 and moved out and living his own life. We can hope that after he has some time, he can be more calm and address his feelings. I agree that calling his parents names is unacceptable. You lived your lives, you raised a son who is successful. Like all parents, you did not give him everything he needs. None of us do. As painful as his rejection is, it is about him, not about you and your wife. This is going to be difficult. As a therapist, I might suggest that you and your wife see someone to help with your side of emotions, Family therapy for all three of you would be ideal, but I doubt he would come. PM me is you want to talk more. Bryan

Well, my wife likes take-charge alpha male types actually and they are her preferred demographic when seeking MFM. But she likes them to be mature, intelligent and confident with zero air of cockiness

I absolutely agree with you. Parents need time alone. However a strong marriage is never enough. Parents need to make one-on-one time with their kids and have to active in nurturing that individual relationship. I have a 24 year old who call me frequently and visits every other week. I've met his girlfriend who I adore. Last year my husband and him did a father-son trip to Colorado. We've always made our relationship with me a priority even in his teens.

Do single guys really think that writing on their profile that they are a dominant bull is going to get them lots of responses? It almost seems like maybe they watch to much porn thinking every woman out there that likes sex is looking for guys to dominate them and all the wives in couples must have some limp dick loser for a husband that has no idea how to please them. For us at least as soon as a guy writes anything about being a dom he is quickly taken off the list as a possible extra. It is a huge turn off for her. She knows how to please a man and does need to be told or pushed to do anything. There is nothing special or sexy about a man that can dominate a woman. It is actually pretty lame. She prefers givers over takers. We have on all of our profiles no interest at all in dom men, but yet they always message anyways thinking they will be the exception. When we tell them not interested at all in dom men they usually say something like I don’t have to play that way. Well that’s nice, but she is not into men that want to play that way. She can and does do better.

So in other words, not a dominant bull.

It's been said, "Comparison is the sworn enemy of happiness." If you're constantly trying to measure up (couldn't help myself lol) to what you see in modern commercial porn, you're probably going to feel self-conscience and disappointed. The people who appear in commercially produced porn are caricatures, complete with oversized everythings (e.g., muscles, dicks, breasts, butts, etc.) They do not represent reality. Many, if not most, are hopped up on a cornucopia of drugs (legal and otherwise) and steroids, not to mention the physical enhancements like breast and butt augmentation, liposuction, lip fillers, skin bleachers, Botox, and on and on. To us, they look more like human science experiments than actual people. Having said all that, I also recognize that some women do, in fact, prefer their lovers to have larger members. That's fine. Likewise, I have a thing for curvaceous, petite blondes with pretty smiles, ample breasts, and killer butts--that's why I married one 😉

I have just spent a week in Fuerteventura with my beautiful wife Mandy and I have some stories to tell. We had spent just a few day's in cap d'agde last year and loved every second, we didn't get involved with anyone else but we really enjoyed having sex and fun with each other on the beach with a few guys watching us and wanking off. The most risky thing we done was, Mandy masterbating while a really good looking black guy knelt in front of her about 2 metres away and wanked off till they both came, although Mandy didn't really see much as she was a bit nervous and shy about making eye contact, so she pretty much kept her eyes closed the whole time. In Fuerteventura however, we got a little braver. We had read stuff online about the stone circles at the beaches so, naturally we thought we'd check them out. The first day we walked south out of Corralejo and found a vacant stone circle maybe around a half mile before the Riu hotels. We stayed there a little while and watched all around us, we didn't see much going on in the way of couples having sex or swingers doing their thing, the only thing was a Spanish man in a white shirt and a white fedora ( nothing on his bottom half ) standing at the entrance to one of the circles chatting to someone inside. After a while a naked woman stood up, got dressed and started preparing to leave, all the while fedora man was chatting away like he was trying to delay her departure, I got the impression he creeped her out. The next day I had a look at Google maps and thought a beach called playa del moyo looked good and it was well out of town so was bound to be much quieter. We took a taxi and found some stone circles just a few hundred metres north of where we had been dropped off, it was definitely much quieter. We settled into a stone circle which was built onto the side of a small dune, there were some bushes growing on the dune and there was a narrow strip of bare sand through the bushes to the other side. Through the bushes I caught a glimpse of a thick bush of black hair and a full bushy beard, we would later name him David. We settled in and just sunbathed naked. I was keeping an eye on David from under my cap that was resting on my eyes, he would sneak through the bush to get a closer look at Mandy then scurry back whenever I stirred. When he realised I wasn't going to tell him to fuck off he came forward with a bit more confidence, cock in hand. Mandy had been lying on her back, knees bent and her feet flat on the towel with her legs open but now she turned over to show him her beautiful ass. He knelt down to get a real good close up of her asshole and pussy, so, she arched up to part her cheeks a little for him and that sent me wild with the horn. David was going hard at it by now and he was stroking Mandy's leg, she whispered " he's touching my leg" I said " will I stop him? " but she said " no its ok I just don't want him getting too far up there ". David rubbed her leg and stroked her bum and then he did touch her pussy ( can't blame the guy ). She didn't flinch or anything but she just whispered " he's touching me now " so I just gestured for him 2 stop and he did immediately, he placed the palms of his hands together and brought them up to his chin in a sort of apologetic way and whispered " but she's so beautiful " . He had very kind eyes and a nice smile, now I can see that he's probably Indian, I smiled and nodded in agreement. After that I just stroked Mandy's back while David thrashed the life out of it, then he stood up and placed the palms of his hands together, smiled and left. We talked about it for ages that night and agreed we'd go back again. 2 days later we went back to the same area and we settled into a slightly better circle ( we started referring to the circles as prime real estate ) and very soon a figure appeared outside it, tentatively peering in ( we would later name him Julio simply because we think he was Spanish ) Because David hadn't been pushy and was respectful we felt a little more at ease with Julio and we let him approach much sooner. Mandy was lying on her front again and Julio stroked her calfs while he masterbated, after a short time Mandy turned over and spread her legs, we were definitely going to go a bit further with Julio. He was a really good looking guy and Mandy was more turned on this time. Julio ran his hand up Mandy's side and back down across her left breast and over her stomach, then he slid his hand under her and squeezed her bum cheek, " are we gonna let hin touch you " I whispered, "yes" she whispered back. Now I turned on my side and started stroking her right side and breast while Julio groped her left breast, we rubbed our hands all over her, she was making some lovely noises now and I could tell she loved our hands all over her. Julio put his face really close to Mandy's pussy and I thought he might try to lick her so I gestured not to and he nodded in acknowledgement. He started touching her pussy now and fingering her, she was so excited and after a very short time she almost had an orgasm, she gestured him to stop as she didn't want to cum so soon but I think he thought we wanted to stop altogether so he got up and gathered his things and said chow. Mandy had wanted him to stay and finish himself off and I wanted him to stay so the both of us could finish ourselves off all over Mandy's tits, oh well, another time and another place. We will be spending a week in cap d'agde this summer, so maybe we'll ratch it up a notch and have a full on, everybody cums spit roasting threesome, here's hoping. 😜

We have heard stories of parents prioritizing swinging over their parental duties. But I agree, negligent parents work too much, drink too much, golf too much. Swinging is not the core of the problem.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. My relationship with my wife is fantastic. My relationship with my kids is fantastic. I don't prioritize relationships with people outside our family (whether lovers or not) over my family, nor would I. I still don't see anything in those reddit posts that points to the underlying problem being swinging. Instead, I see neglect. If you're in this to condemn swinging, you're not making headway.

There is far more there than the parents prioritizing their relationship as a basis for being parents.

Right and what's far more in demand is just some sexy confidence. Not someone who has to say they are some alpha dom bull, which actually screams of insecurity. Indeed. Basic spelling and grammar issues are one of our blacklist items. Especially since most browsers are trying to help prevent that these days. In a text, forgivable. In a profile that you've had up for days/months/years? No so much.

DITTO! I hate Doms, I am not into being dominated or controlled. I also get a ridiculous number of guys contacting me and telling me that I need to be controlled and I shut them down. It is such a turn off.

There are plenty of single guys in the lifestyle who just rule themselves out by saying stupid things in their profiles. We frequently say here that the supply of single males in the lifestyle far outstrips demand. The reality; the number of good single men in the lifestyle isn't anywhere near as disparate to the demand for such men. My wife and I can easily run through profiles of single men and go "Nope...<next>...Nope...<next>...Nope...<next>...Nope....<next>..." and on and on. There's maybe 2 or 3 in 20 that are worth reaching out to (if that). When we get messages, similar numbers immediately get excluded because they didn't read our profile or are demonstrating how much of an idiot they are. So many of their unsolicited messages boil down to "Hey, you seem cool. Wanna fuck?" Gets old. Gets really old. We have found a few gems over the years; guys that got to the point of having sex with my wife and with whom my wife had a really good time. When we do find them, we keep them around if possible. Two of them became long term lovers for my wife, spanning years. Very, very worth it rather than having to deal with so much BS from wannabes.

I think you've already handled it, and handled it well. One thing you might consider; suggest to him, in a non-accusatory way, that you don't want to be alone without him in a swinging situation. Make it a pact between the two of you that if one of you needs to leave the room for a bit for whatever reason, that you both do. Aphroditee is right; you can't change the past. All you can do is move forward from it taking the lessons from the past into the future.

I've read all three stories, and what I see in all cases is parents that neglected their children. The swinging/open marriage is used as a focal point, but it's not the point. The point is these parents were being bad parents...in some cases just AWFUL parents. These stories could have just as easily been written without swinging/open marriage involved at all. You could just as easily replace the swinging aspect with drinking, going to bars/clubbing, having friends over for a drunken party night, etc. It would be the same difference. Swinging wasn't the cause of the neglect. It does serve as a potent reminder to all of us to take time with our children seriously. Recently, my wife and I have gotten involved with another couple. Things are going very nicely. It has also meant that we've been out from the house when in the last few years (in part, due to covid) we have not been. I don't think this is a bad thing. I think it healthy for kids to understand that parents need to spend time on themselves too. Parents that throw themselves 100000% into being a parent can in fact hurt their kids in doing so. I'd much rather show my kids that their parents have an interest in spending time together. My wife and I spend a lot of time on our kids. We are always there for their events (unless work is in the way), and always provide support for them in the form of time. I wouldn't have it any other way. Their are times when they don't like us (one of them in particular tonight is in quite the mood..sigh), but I'm not here to be liked..I'm here to be a parent, and that I take quite seriously. If I thought for even a second that spending time with this other couple was hurting my children, I'd stop it instantly, and so would my wife. My wife and I have been very intentional about keeping the open marriage aspect of our lives to ourselves. We don't feel it's any of the kids' business. It's our private lives, and ours alone. We don't pry into their dating lives and we're not going to disclose ours. We have discussed that if they should find out, we're not going to deny it.

Good advise above, glad you have a strong relationship. Trust is something that is built over time yet quickly destroyed. Apologize and do everything you can to hear his concern. No excuses, just honest responsibility. Frankly, in the big picture of a relationship, we less than perfect humans make mistakes. We do things that we wish we could take back, both in swinging and in our vanilla lives. The fact that naked sex is involved doesn't make it any worse. So, love each other, respect each other, acknowledge ones transgressions and move forward together. He can help, by allowing you to apologize, accepting it in the spirit it is intended and not punishing you for it. it does take two and as you stated you have a strong relationship, don't let this become bigger or more important that it really is. The evening did sounds super fun and sexy.

We’ve had what we thought were fun experiences with other couples, then radio silence. I do find that when a male cannot perform or underperforms, he is reluctant to try again with the same woman. It doesn’t bother us, but it bothers them. More than once, we’ve been baffled. It’s not you, it’s them.

The mistake was to say you were not jealous You could have said "I'm super jealous, but that's part of the excitement ;-)" and you should have had private sex with her immediately afterwards. Now... the only thing that will "repair" this is beautiful moments of private lovemaking. As soon as possible. And while at it, whisper in her ears that you were super jealous. That's what she wants to hear.

I feel really numb right now. At this point I'm writing for cathartic reasons. It's been four hours ago my son invited us to talk to him. I asked him to give us a couple of few days but my wife was persistent to say the least. Before we got in the car, we both agreed to listen to him say his piece first. When we entered, he still seamed energetic. He asked us for water or anything. We said no and we sat down in the living room. He said a lot for me to quote. I'll just give a summary: He first apologized for the name-calling. He said he deeply regrets calling us that and wishes he could take that back. He says he isn't inherently against us being swingers, even though that's something he personally doesn't have an interest in himself. He feels though it was that our swinging took precedence over spending time with him. He understood that we couldn't have our world revolve around him. He understood we needed time as a couple to keep our marriage strong. However, according to him we checked out of the relationship we had with him at around 15. In his we seemed much more happy coming back from our weekend getaways and our anniversary vacation than with the family trips. The fact that we did more couples trips than family trips didn't help at all. We were practically gone every other Saturday. To him it seemed we were so happy and wrapped around each other that he sort of felt like an intruder at home. Out of fear of intruding, he never confronted us on how he felt inside. He said he felt like an accessory to our marriage, rather than a person we wanted a strong individual relationship with. It seemed like parenting was a daily chore for us. In order to deal with this he asked us for one-on-one time with either of us so he could he feel like he could get our undivided attention for once. However, we rarely could have because of how many swinger activities we booked. We would tell him to do stuff with his friends instead. He figured out that we were swingers when he asked to borrow the laptop when he was 17 and we had one tab open. He sort of gave up on wanting a relationship with us at that point. He told me he primarily dormed not only for social life but he needed to get out of the house. He outright told us that we don't know him as an individual. To us, he's a quite introverted kid who doesn't say a lot around us. However, he much more talkative with everyone else around. The thing that shocked us was that he pretended to be happy when we call or came to visit so that he didn't hurt our feelings. He says his love for us comes out of gratitude, not because he likes being around us or because he feels close to us. He mentioned that he talks to his girlfriend's parents significantly more than us. The main reason that he blew up at us, was that we came uninvited to his place. He hated the fact that he had to pretend to actually interact with us as if we had that kind of relationship. He initially wanted to make an excuse that he had to go somewhere but he's made that excuse multiple times whenever we invited him or asked if he could come over. So, he had to bite the bullet. After four hours, we finally left. He was angry and annoyed at the same time. He finally say we left the bag at his place. Not wanting an excuse to come to his place again, he dropped the bag at night. He sort of figured it out we had one of our parties ending and it triggered him. He said what we wants from us now: -Unless it's for certain occasion, don't ask him to call or visit anymore. -He no longer will initiate anything from his side -He wants us to call him if there's an emergency or if we need possible financial help because he feels he owes us at least that much. -Respect the fact that his girlfriend's parents will take precedence over us from now on. Meaning if they ever have kids, they would be the primary grandparents. He will deal with taking care of them when they get old before he looks at us. -Don't ask for more or expect more out of our relationship. He doesn't want a mother-son dance at his wedding. He doesn't want me giving a speech at his wedding. My wife couldn't handled it and asked us to leave. She was silent the entire time we drove home.