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Something else to blame on my parents. Waiting to tell my shrink about this.

We know you are kidding. How often do you see cock size emphasized on dating sites? Does it attract or chase you away? We find men who post this are very self centered or complete fakes. People the size of your organ is not based on anything more than genes not by anything you did. Blame your parents if you don’t measure up to your wants.

No offense meant Why are you the most prolific poster on a swinger page if you are not a swinger? (your words) I don’t understand your always sexual answers. My understanding is Poly is multiple loves whilst Swinging is having recreational sex.

Well of course they do! That's why there's a place to enter in your cock size on every dating site out there 😄 Just kidding I should hope not. That said, I'm sure people have broken up with people after seeing 'the goods'.

I'm going to have to disagree with the idea that 10 minutes can destroy a marriage (at least in this case). This was consensual act. Nobody cheated on anybody. There wasn't a protracted affair, there wasn't even a drunken hookup with a stranger. This was a consensual situation. That the husband withdrew after it, and kept refusing overtures to talk things through, and wouldn't go for counseling? Sorry, the only reason the 10 minutes mattered is because the husband intentionally torpedoed the marriage. There's a lot more going on here than we know about. This 10 minutes was but a symptom of much larger situations. I mean seriously...how many of us would give up on a marriage after just 10 minutes of problem? Are we THAT uncommitted to making it work? Or did the "...for worse." part not mean anything? No marriage is perfect. It takes time and effort. Being able (much less willing) to walk away from it all after just 10 minutes shows a serious lack of commitment to the marriage. I think this marriage would have ended anyway, just due to another supposed reason.

I’m going to agree with Tricia that the real first time was painful and I expected it to be. My second time was a little better still painful. At the time I kept it to myself and wondered if I had a problem. To answer the OP I was with a virgin who I liked a lot. The first time was very fast not that he ever lasted long. Both of young and neither of us knew much. I wonder about what happened with him. Does anybody search for their first boyfriends?

I shouldn’t answer this, I’m ashamed to answer truthfully, our first meeting included a dick with a big dick. He wasn’t our main attraction, she was, he was the plus one. We posted before that we were looking for a unicorn then expanded our search which led to the fakes. We figured a cute female and a man who had a tool hanging were going to be another no show. We figured his hang was at least 8” flaccid.

No gag, that’s a keeper 😎

If you want to watch sex a big cock adds to the show.

I am sorry that this is how this story ends. I agree strongly with those saying the ten minutes aren't the problem. I don't know either of you, but people often attempt swinging to save a troubled relationship. It is possible that your husband had already become profoundly unhappy in some part of his mind, but still wanted a way to make the marriage work. The failure cemented his unhappiness and he came to an unpleasant realization that he has given up. This is not necessarily a reflection on you at all. Sometimes people simply change with time and misinterpret what they are failing, or take drastic measures to try to avoid confronting it.

Davidia, Ten minutes in she noticed he was having issues. He got up and walked out .She followed him. Other than having him wired to a monitor what more is to be done? Yes We try to be aware of each other in these situations, neither of us wants or needs a sitter though.

This may indeed may be true, but OTOH people, men and women, are not naturally monogamous either. Perhaps swinging is not necessarily the best way to be nonmonogamous. We, the five of us, are a poly family, although we have, on occasion, played with others. Every marriage, every relationship, every family with a teenager should start with a discussion about how people are not naturally monogamous and how that will be dealt with. "Fight it" should not be the default response. You raise such a thought provoking point that I need to read your other posts.

I’m a little shocked that everyone is taking her side and saying that he don’t know what he had…she’s a gem? If he had done the same thing, fucking the other woman without at least checking to see if she was ok, he would be an asshole and and not worth having. Amazing. Real advise works in both directions people!

Most of us on here if truthful will say the first time was not great physically and orgasms were not to be. My first was awkward and fumbly and painful. I also worried about getting pregnant after he had problems with the condom. I was ready to do it, wanted to do it, was scared to do it. I was told it could hurt and bleed and went as far as having an old towel under me. I really liked him, had been with him a few times and had first played through clothes. Oral was only one way don’t think he knew. We had stopped the time before because of pain from his using his hand. Finally I told him to do it and not stop, I most likely was biting my lip then screamed, he stopped but had already came and then realized the condom came off. Young love we dated a few months. We did it a number of times when we found his or my parents weren’t home. I don’t remember having a real orgasm with him even though we both enjoyed the making out.

Do people really chose partners based on penis size?

Weren’t we all virgins?

My wife journals her meetings writing whatever she remembers. Very rare that she mentions size which leads me to say it doesn’t matter.

I thought that you were going to say that he would pass out from all the blood rushing from his brain to his cock.

Introduction Marriage is a social, legal and often religious event marking entry into a voluntary mutual relationship. Amidst the celebrations with newly connected families and friends, the newlywed couple makes reciprocal commitments that are often enshrined as vows during the wedding ceremony. Prominent among those vows is a promise to "forsake all others" forever, or at least until "death do [us] part". That vow is widely understood to be a vow of perpetual monogamy. History suggests that monogamy is an especially difficult vow to keep. While researchers offer widely varied estimates of the rate of “cheating” (technically, “non-consensual non-monogamy”), most agree that about half of all married individuals cheat at some point during a marriage. Surely more contemplate non-monogamy than actually pursue it. Therefore it is likely that you -- or your spouse -- have at one time or another had thoughts about sex with others. These thoughts create tension: your vows matter to you, as does your spouse’s happiness. The purposes of this essay This tension, namely the desire for sexual variety in conflict with the vow of monogamy within marriage, motivated this essay. This essay discusses an alternative to non-consensual non-monogamy, namely consensual non-monogamy. Let us agree that the phrase, “consensual non-monogamy”, is awkward. Such consensual non-monogamy is also called “swinging”. Couples who swing are said to be “in the Lifestyle”. (For the balance of this essay, references to the “Lifestyle” [capitalized] are references to swinging. The more conventional use of the word to refer to any particular way of living [e.g. casual lifestyle, executive lifestyle, bohemian lifestyle] is avoided in this essay. ) Perhaps you became aware of swinging -- "The Lifestyle" -- and realized that there were others who not only had those thoughts but in fact acted on those thoughts. You'll recognize several themes including the importance of communication. You might well be asking yourself, "What do I say?" Or "How do I start this line of communication?" Conversations about sex are predictably difficult, and conversations about sex with your spouse that seek to consider inclusion of others into your sex life can be even more challenging. The purposes of this essay are to overcome some of the difficulties raising the topic for discussion. · The first purpose is to understand why and how the idea of swinging makes its way into a committed marriage. The first part of the essay addresses the drive for sex and for sexual variety. · The second purpose is to explore the state of committed marriage. Commitment involves actions, not intentions. · The third purpose is to offer a framework that encourages communication even about sensitive topics within that committed marriage. The commitments and the covenant The use of emphasis--"committed” in the phrase “committed marriage”--is deliberate and forms a centerpiece of this essay. There are marriage contracts (and prenuptial contracts and divorce decrees) that form a legal basis for a relationship. What is more important for this discussion is the marriage covenant—namely the commitments made to each other. The marriage covenant is not quite the same as the vows you spoke. Rather the marriage covenant is what each of you committed to each other --and why you committed to each other -- when you decided to take life's journey together. At that moment, you reciprocally acknowledged something valuable and wonderful in growing together. For reasons that will become apparent as this essay unfolds, recalling that point in your lives and reflecting on what you have done for each other and how you have grown together since that point is a key step in deciding whether swinging is right for you. Put simply, growing together--not living in parallel but actually growing together--is foundational to the Lifestyle. Commitment, monogamy, and the drive for variety It's reasonable to ask why anyone in a committed marriage would even think about other sex partners. "Isn't s/he enough?" "Didn't you do enough 'hooking up' or 'sowing your wild oats'?" "How can you even think about being 'unfaithful'?" The answer seems to be that most humans are hard-wired to seek variety in sex. While a few humans are truly disinterested in sex at any time (around 1% of Americans seem to be asexual), and while the variety-seeking behavior can be suppressed, the quest for sexual variety seems to be part of adult life.(Barash and Lipton 2001; Ryan and Jethá 2010)There are socially acceptable strategies: fantasy and role play. There are marginally acceptable strategies: sex in a semi-public place, pornography, strip clubs, sex for money (legal in some states). There are unacceptable strategies involving force and deception. There are culturally dependent strategies: the French have some reputation for tolerating husbands having mistresses and wives having lovers.(Yalom 2012)Regardless of your (or our) views on whether the activities are appropriate or acceptable, the drive for variety is real and is eventually either met or suppressed. There are two or three reflex reactions to the prior paragraph, namely: "I can and will suppress that drive for variety, "; "I have no interest in variety--my spouse is the only person I ever want/need/desire,” and "That's counter to all of my religious beliefs, cultural learnings, marital commitments and personal values." To those who choose suppression for the sake of superiority, good luck. Active denial of hard-wired drives is hard. While some people succeed at self-starvation (hunger strikes), most have difficulty with ordinary dieting. The situation with sex is not all that different. To those who claim no interest in novelty and sexual variety, bear in mind no distinction has been made among imagination, practices, physical status and available partners. Claiming that "my spouse is all I want" would mean that even if disability should make sex a physical impossibility, you would not be interested in sex with another. Serial monogamy--leaving one partner for another as famously exemplified by Elizabeth Taylor and her seven husbands--is just an expensive alternative response to the quest for variety.(Vaughan 2003) To those who object on moral grounds--religion, culture, marital vows, and personal values--your self-respect has our respect. You are trying to conduct your life according to principles. The drive for sex and for sexual variety is still going to be there. If history teaches us anything, it is that sex drives prevail. Politicians claim to embody "good family values". Celebrities present themselves as role models. Catholic priests voluntarily accept celibacy. All are subject to -- and nearly all succumb to --the drive for sex and for sexual variety. Entire industries float upon this biological drive and the failure to acknowledge and control it. So let's be clear. The quest for sexual variety does not magically end at the wedding. At some point, it is more likely than not that every couple will confront the dilemma in the context of marriage. Cheating is not an option. Committed couples struggle to reconcile marital commitments with underlying biology. Swinging--giving each other permission to yield to the drives and pursue the quest for variety while sustaining your marriage--has presented itself as an option. Swinging and the Nobel Prize It is unsurprising that the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1950 was awarded to one of the great minds of the 20th century, the mathematician Bertrand Russell. The citation for that prize reads "in recognition of his varied and significant writings in which he champions humanitarian ideals and freedom of thought." It may be surprising to learn that the prize was awarded for his writings on open marriage and the challenges that followed. In 1929, Bertrand Russell published "Marriage and Morals," which directly challenged the Victorian norms of sex and sexuality. Quotes appear below. Before reading them, know that Russell was attacked to the point that he had to resign a university professorship. (Then, as now, political correctness defeated new thought.) Yet many thought leaders rushed to his support including John Dewey (widely considered the father of modern American education) and even Albert Einstein who wrote an open letter on Russell's behalf saying “Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds ... ” Here are four representative quotes from the second edition of "Marriage and Morals" (Russell 1938)that illuminate Russell's mindset and writing: The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot coexist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. The good life cannot be led without self-control, but it is better to control a restrictive and hostile emotion such as jealousy rather than a generous and expansive emotion such as love. Sex cannot dispense with an ethic, any more than business or sport or scientific research or any other branch of human activity. But it can dispense with an ethic based solely on ancient prohibitions propounded by uneducated people in a society wholly unlike our own. The general principle upon which the newer morality differs from the traditional morality of puritanism is this: we believe that instinct should be trained rather than thwarted. Here is a fifth and perhaps most important quotation from Russell's controversial Nobel Prize winning work: The essence of a good marriage is respect for each other's personality combined with that deep intimacy, physical, mental and spiritual, which makes a serious love between man and woman the most fructifying of all human experiences....Such love, like everything else that is great and precious, demands its own morality, and frequently entails a sacrifice of the less to the greater; but such sacrifice must be voluntary, for where it is not, it will destroy the very basis of the love for the sake of which it is made. Thus one of the great minds of the 20th century recognized and tried to reconcile being sexually attracted to someone other than their great love. Swinging--The Lifestyle--is simply one way of resolving the tension between biology of sex and commitments of marriage. Yet entering the Lifestyle has the potential to greatly affect marriage, for good and for bad. Swinging in the context of commitment On the surface, swinging sounds like the best of all worlds, "having your cake and eating it too". On the surface, swinging also sounds like the worst of all choices, putting marriage at risk for a little physical pleasure. Sorting through these diametrically opposing perspectives requires a much deeper exploration of what it means to be in -- a committed marriage. Here, the voice of the essay switches from third person to second person. The reason for the switch is to prompt introspection not about marriage generally but rather about your marriage. You are surely tired of the repeated use of the word "committed". You're thinking that every marriage represents a commitment--and you are correct. What we are after here is an exploration of how (both of) you see and embrace that mutual commitment. Your wedding is the obvious place to start. It was a wonderful, memorable day. Family and friends were there to celebrate; there was a party, maybe even a honeymoon trip. Yet that day was the outcome of a decision to journey forward together. You decided not just to marry but also to spend the rest of your lives together in partnership. Whether you knew it at the time, by this time you've come to understand that maintaining, sustaining and growing the partnership isn't easy. You've discovered what all of us long-marrieds learned: marriage involves a series of adaptations and compromises. How and where you live. How to raise the kids. How to manage money. How to juggle work, friends, responsibilities. Along the way, you've had some disagreements. Shouting matches. Hurt feelings. Maybe an authentic fight or two. You've found things in your spouse that irritate you. Here's the question: has any of that really threatened your partnership? Can you see yourselves apart? Can the rest of the world see the two of you apart? Or do you ultimately see your disagreements and differences as 'small stuff'? This is really important, because--as you will read in many threads--swinging is likely to expose and stress 'fault lines' in every relationship. Put differently, if both of you are not utterly committed to spending your lives together no matter what challenges come your way, swinging has greater potential for harm than good. Once and again, that does not mean your marriage is 'perfect', that either of you is 'perfect', or that you are immune to the ordinary negative emotions of anger, jealousy, and so on. That marriage exists nowhere (with the possible exception of 1950's American TV shows.) It does mean, however, that the partnership not only has value but also that it is of such value to both of you that you are not going to walk away from it. Marriage and Communication Just because you're in that kind of partnership does not mean that you communicate effectively. We know--and we suspect you know--committed couples that seem unable to discuss (much less resolve) disagreements. They "win" (or "lose") arguments. Moreover, they keep score. When threatened, they retreat to their corners. They "get past", "get over", "get through" in order to "get together". Perhaps they already disagree about sex. Their inability to communicate their feelings, their wants, their needs and their desires presents an obvious obstacle when one or the other first imagines coming to agreement about swinging. Suffice it to say that effective, honest communication is a precondition to exploring the Lifestyle. Precondition means that such communication is necessary but not by itself sufficient. We observe two communication patterns between spouses in the Lifestyle. While the same is surely true about some vanilla spouses, what follows are -- at least in our experience -- consistent characteristics among the Lifestyle couples we have come to know. First, they frequently are 'messaging' the other about how special/wonderful/important they are. Things they say, things they do, things they give, time they spend. It's not just doing the dishes unbidden, or bringing flowers home for no special reason, or the "I'm thinking of you" text in the middle of the day. It's all of those things put together. They look at each other, touch each other, and listen to each other. The communication pipes are open and flowing, they are engaged. Second, even when they are apart, they are emotionally connected. They speak about the other, and always with some note of affection or support whether their spouse is 6 feet or 6000 miles distant. Their spouse is never far from their thoughts. Both seem to know, feel and project this emotional bond. This does not mean that either is free of insecurities. No one, and certainly no couple, is free of insecurities. They are no less affected by aging, appearance, marketing, kids, finances, etc than the rest of us. Yet by freely and frequently sharing both their fantasies and their fears, they become stronger as partners. There is a third feature that seems to be common among happy Lifestyle couples. It is perhaps the hardest to put into words but on some level seems to be the most important. Each partner seems to be sensitive to--and responsive to--how their partner is feeling at the moment and in the moment. They have trained themselves--and each other--to reflexively pick up on and to respond to the other's needs and wants in both words and actions to the point that they often anticipate what will make their partner happy even before that partner perceives the want or need. Again, this feature is hardly unique to Lifestyle couples. It is nevertheless so frequently characteristic of happy Lifestyle couples that its absence would be immediately noticed. Compersion as an attribute of marriage These three features together enable something that Lifestyle people call "compersion". The word is a neologism--a 'made-up' word. You will not find the word in a conventional dictionary, yet there are many descriptions and definitions on the Internet. For our purposes, the most useful definition is finding joy in others' happiness. In the Lifestyle, it refers to finding joy in your partner's sexual pleasure and satisfaction, even if someone else is instrumental in providing that pleasure to and for your partner. However, it's worth stepping back from that particular situation and taking a broader look at different perspectives on happiness. At one end of a spectrum is schadenfreude. Borrowed from the German, schadenfreude refers to finding pleasure in the misfortunes of others. It can be a guilty pleasure, traded on by various tabloid and celebrity magazines when they breathlessly report who is being served with divorce papers, who has gained weight, whose plastic surgery went awry and so on. It can fuel laughter, as in much of slapstick comedy and “funny home videos” TV shows. It is pleasure purely at someone else's expense. Schadenfreude is part of the human experience. In the middle of the happiness spectrum is the "winner-loser" situation. In sport, someone wins, the other loses. In the stock market, someone wins, someone else loses. There is a sort of partitioning from a neutral situation into happiness for one, anti-happiness for the rest. One can imagine a 'fixed amount of happiness' in the world that is distributed, redistributed, yet is unchanging. It is a zero-sum game. It may be an unbalanced zero-sum game, for example only one person gets the job, the other applicants are unhappy. But in sport there is typically balance, a winner and a loser. Yet sport also invites unbalance, such as in tournaments where there is only one final winner. At the opposite end of the spectrum is compersion. Seeing a child laugh makes us feel happy. (Marketers and politicians understand this. It is also why you can't resist those cute cat videos on Facebook: they make you feel good.) These examples suggest that compersion is also part of the common human experience. Indeed, altruists organize their lives around the experience of giving to others and making them happy. Compersion is already part of your marriage: the things you do to make your spouse happy--flowers, the surprise vacation, the romantic dinner that you planned--you are happy because your spouse is happy. When your spouse gets a promotion, a raise, a gift from someone else--the happiness you experience because your spouse is being made happy--that's compersion. The Sum of All Fears Sex and sexual pleasure have a different calculus. Within monogamous marriage, it is acceptable for you—and only you--to bring your spouse sexual pleasure. Even when s/he (she or he) masturbates, it's 'without you'. Knowing that s/he's fantasizing about someone other than you and knowing that it's heightening the pleasure is disquieting. (Such “adultery of the heart” is still adultery according to The Bible, see Matthew 5:27-28. President Jimmy Carter famously confessed to same and lost a bid for reelection.) Imagining sex with someone other than you, having a great experience fuels anger, rage and shame. Unpack those emotions. S/he's having fun--with someone else!--and you're not. You are envious of what s/he can do for your partner. You become jealous of their shared pleasure. Perhaps you're secretly hoping that it will end catastrophically for them (the schadenfreude response). You feel vulnerable. Your marriage feels vulnerable. Your partner's fantasy has become reality. Unfortunately, it is bringing to the surface your worst nightmares. Let's get those fears out into the open. You can see the scene in your mind's eye. S/he's experiencing things that s/he hasn't experienced with you recently, if ever. Or maybe s/he's seeing you experience things that you haven't felt for a while, if ever. You...or s/he...are wondering if you are 'good enough' for the other. Maybe you feel left out. Maybe your partner does. Suddenly you feel vulnerable. Alone. Isolated. Abandoned. You were "the one" when you married. No more "playing the field". Those wedding vows about love, cherish, honor? They included that clause about 'forsaking all others'. Fidelity, remaining 'faithful', was crystallized by mutual sexual exclusivity. And now you (or your spouse) is talking about 'throwing it all away'. Throwing you away. Surely it's time for the marriage counselor. Perhaps a call to a divorce attorney. Maybe you two should write to one of those "Can this marriage be saved?" advice columns. If that's not bad enough, your broke at least two of the Ten Commandments, committed a mortal sin, will have to wear a scarlet letter and are surely damned to spend eternity in the fires of hell. In fact, just for even thinking about sex with anyone but your spouse and only then for purposes of procreation, you are surely at risk for spontaneous combustion. Really? What fuels this sort of spiraling illogic? A sidebar on envy and jealousy The term jealousy (and labels such as "green-eyed monster") is widely used in the Lifestyle without definition. Jealousy is not quite the same as envy. Both are complex emotions and have somewhat different origins. Both lie at the root of many fears. In fact, both crop up in the Lifestyle and it's worth recognizing the underlying drivers. Jealousy is often tied into fear of loss (of partner to another), sense of betrayal, uncertainty and even loneliness. Envy is often tied into fear of inadequacy/inferiority and simultaneous resentment of some other person even while trying to assume some of their characteristics. The opposite of jealousy is compersion, i.e. finding joy when your partner finds pleasure with whomever. Shifting the balance from jealousy to compersion requires a firm and maybe unshakeable belief in the durability of the partnership--knowing that s/he is the object of true and unshakeable love. That's a key conversation to have early and often in the Lifestyle--what is unshakeable and how perceived risks are going to be managed. Actions need to reinforce that conversation. The opposite of envy is contentedness. In the Lifestyle it is a blend of self-confidence and self-acceptance. In any collection of persons, there will always be someone else who is (choose one or more): taller, slimmer, firmer, flatter, bigger breasts, perkier breasts, tighter pussy, cums faster, cums slower, longer cock, thicker cock, more stamina, more responsiveness, deeper eyes, better kisser,... We are also attracted to different-from-what-we-already-have. That self-confidence and self-acceptance comes from within but within a partnership/marriage benefits from strong, regular, heartfelt reinforcement. Each of us has imperfections. We are often our own harshest critics. That can easily get magnified in an asymmetric swinging situation, especially where one partner has found a playmate and the other is not finding the chemistry/sparks. The twin fears—of loss and of inadequacy—can fuel each other and typically lead to intense shame (directed inward) and/or rage (directed outward). These are manifest as “drama”, something that no one in the Lifestyle enjoys personally or enjoys seeing. There are strategies for couples to deal with these complex emotions. First, there has to be a willingness to be vulnerable--to be able to say "I am afraid". Being able to say "I am afraid of loss/abandonment or I am afraid of being inadequate" are essential first steps to dealing with jealousy and envy, respectively. Acknowledging vulnerability is empowering for the individual and for the relationship. Dropping the shields isn’t easy. Superiority and perfectionism have become ingrained behaviors in matters of sex (“Was I better than ___?”) Foreboding joy –imagining those horrible outcomes because your partner is experiencing joy—opposes compersion. Second, there has to be a willingness to accept imperfections and even celebrate them. Those can be acknowledged and practiced outside of the Lifestyle. We would argue that they are foundational to a strong relationship. As for imperfections, we all have them. We all acquire more. Some are physical, some are emotional, and some are spiritual. Some are repairable, some are worth addressing. Those that are both are worth working on. Those that irreparable or insignificant must be accepted, and it's up to each of us how graceful we want to be about it. Let's recap the need for open communication, acknowledgement of vulnerability and embracing imperfection as foundational to the lifestyle. Eros and healthy relationships Wanting variety in sex is part of normal healthy erotic life. You are no different. Having variety in sex is also part of normal healthy erotic life. Playing the field before you got married. Fantasy about other partners. Role play. Photos, movies, books. Again, normal and healthy. When you married, you fantasized about a “perfect” wedding, a romantic honeymoon and a fulfilling life together. You shared an intention; you made a commitment--a deep and abiding commitment-- when you chose to become a partner in a relationship-for-life. As part of that commitment, you established monogamy-for-life as a boundary on your (plural) sexual behaviors. Commit that triad to memory: fantasy, intention, boundary. It will prove useful. It is years later. You are still utterly devoted to and committed to your spouse. Your spouse's happiness is a priority--and likely THE priority--in your life. You cannot fathom cheating on him/her. But the truth is that the exciting sex that came from romance has become routine. What was extraordinary and exciting has settled into routine. It is unsurprising that the drive for sexual variety has resurfaced. The fantasies are part of life. Figuring out how to manage them is also part of life. Learning about them is part of your good faith effort to resolve the tensions among fidelity and variety within your relationship in a way that does not threaten the relationship. In fact, you're working to find a way to resolve the tension in a way that affirms your love, honors your partner, and is honest and utterly truthful. We'll get to some specifics in the next section. For now, consider the following. Swingers have an interesting jargon. They refer to their other couples in the lifestyle as playmates. Not lovers, not girl/boyfriends, not even sex objects. They are playmates at play, enjoying temporary roles and their imaginations. Yes, this sort of adult play is the realization of adult fantasy. But it is still fantasy, analogous to when you were children imaging yourselves as Prince and Princess, Tarzan and Jane, Doctor and Nurse, etc. Indeed, swingers not infrequently have theme parties dressing up as Doctor and Nurse, Tarzan and Jane, Principal and School Girl, Swing time is adult play time. Swingers do not view the drive for erotic variety as a threat to their relationship. They view it as a way to deepen their relationship. Erotic Play One of the things about being playful is that it makes you feel good and it is likely to make your playmate feel good. For swing couples--this is where compersion comes into the picture-- seeing their partner recharged through play makes them feel good as well. Their partner seems more desirable --and they happen to be married to them! They feel more vibrant. They have given each other permission to be a little naughty with others, and this flows back as encouragement to be naughty with each other. "Sexy" comes back into conversation, into grooming, into fashion, into ordinary life. You want your partner to look and feel great. Your partner wants you to look and feel great. Not just for others. For each other. A few realities There is something irreversible about starting a conversation about non-monogamy. You can’t pretend that it didn’t happen. That makes the first step a difficult one. While nothing can be undone, there is no reason that starting a conversation should be a “nuclear event”. (If difficult conversations around other topics routinely precipitate nuclear events in a marriage, communication strategies and styles have a higher priority than swinging. As mentioned earlier, honest communication is a precondition to the initial conversation. ) Thoughts and feelings have to be discussable without creating havoc. A conversation should not destroy the relationship you have created over years. There are many other issues. For example, swinging involves dating, and there is a reason that few of us look fondly back on our dating years. Put simply, it's not all orgasms and roses. There are unhappy experiences in swinging, as there are in all life activities. Working through lack-luster play, uneven experiences, mistakes, disappointments and insecurities is part of swinging. Typically it results in a closer relationship with your spouse. Getting to know the Lifestyle, and others in the Lifestyle You also have a new group of acquaintances who are similarly comfortable about their partnership. They seem to have especially strong commitments to each other, are more attentive to each other than you see on average in your co-workers, your neighbors, your families. They are fun to be around. You are still committed to your partner. There's been no deception. You find yourself looking forward to dating each other as well as dating other couples. Your senses--and your emotional sensitivity --are heightened. You are more honest in expressing what makes you feel good--and what makes you feel bad. You find you can speak directly to issues that you used to avoid. What makes this all work? It gets back to communication. It gets back to a specific type of communication. There are three elements that are usefully discussed among you and your spouse before embarking in the Lifestyle generally, and perhaps before meeting new couples specifically. The three elements are: 1. What are our fantasies? We are doing this for fun and with each other. We are going to blur the line between fantasy and reality. What does that look like? It can be as simple as meeting a couple for the first time over drinks and dinner, knowing that they like to play. It can be as complex as imagining four (or more!) intertwined bodies. 2. What are our intentions? What is the reality of what we are going to do together? Is this “a little hobby”? How much exploration do we plan? 3. What are our boundaries? Are we clear on what we will do together and what we expect of each other? What does approaching a limit look like, and what will we do if-and-when either of us gets there? The answers to those three questions often evolve as people explore and experience the Lifestyle. Putting a toe in the water is different than jumping into the deep end of the pool. What matters is clarity “in the moment”. One more thought This essay is a meditation on marriage more than it is a meditation on the Lifestyle. The couples we know in the Lifestyle are far better adjusted than most we know in our vanilla lives. They are ‘more happily married’ than many we know among family, neighbors, co-workers and from other walks in our vanilla lives. One explanation is that there is a filtering process thinking about and entering the Lifestyle, and that process merely filters out the good ones. Perhaps there is something deeper. Working through the fears of consensual non-monogamy reveals a very different notion of 'forsaking all others'. People in the Lifestyle actually do forsake all others but on an emotional level. After accepting non-monogamy, it is that unshakeable emotional bond that remains. Marriage takes on the character of a spiritual relationship wherein the intensity depends only on that emotional commitment to share life's journey. Why do long-term Lifestyle couples stay with their partner? Simply because they cannot imagine going through life with anyone else. We find ourselves energized around other Lifestyle couples. Yet eventually we –and they-- go home. We go home with our spouses. Not simply because we want to, nor that we have to. We go home together because our union has become more precious, more fundamental to our very being than our separate lives. Barash, D. P. and J. E. Lipton (2001). The myth of monogamy : fidelity and infidelity in animals and people. New York, W. H. Freeman and Co. Russell, B. (1938). Marriage and morals. New York, Sun Dial Press. Ryan, C. and C. Jethá (2010). Sex at dawn : the prehistoric origins of modern sexuality. New York, Harper. Vaughan, P. (2003). The monogamy myth : a personal handbook for recovering from affairs. New York, Newmarket Press. Yalom, M. (2012). How the French invented love : nine hundred years of passion and romance. New York, NY, Harper Perennial.

We started with Don’t ask, Don’t tell attitude, we both cheated. I had guilt that didn’t stop me, then her finding out about my affair led to her freedom to meet others. The truth has set our minds at ease that non-monogamy was healthy for our relationship. While we continue meeting others alone, meeting others together has added another positive addition to our lives.

I just re read your original post. What I get: The two of you met and agreed in private to play with a couple. It was a mate swap situation. You had a good time. Your husband was disturbed by your good time and was having less of a good time because of it. He eventually got up and left. You followed him. Is that a reasonable summation of the story? If it is, then the only thing that I can see that you did was to not pick up sooner on how he was doing. If my wife is enjoying someone else I expect that to be her focus. Yes she does glance over occasionally as do I. The operative word there is occasionally. Otherwise you did what I would consider reasonable. Just because he felt bad does NOT mean you cuckolded him. The fact that he has not at least somewhat comes to grips at this point means , to me, that there is more going on. Even if you had made some egregious error, I would expect a "normal" response, from just this incident alone , to be something other than divorcing. The Divorce idea may just be one of the avenues of escape that he is trying on for size. I had a similar, but not as extensive, experience. Hurt, crabby, after a weekend party. I did not know why, and my wife had done everything to perfection. Several days later I had a memory that went all the way back to high school age, that evoked strong emotion. It was however the emotional response of a 17 year old. Evidently an unresolved emotional response. Triggered by the playtime. That was the cause . The most embarrassing thing was telling my bride what it was. I think many of us carry around such minor and sometimes not so minor things from a time when we were not mature enough to adequately process them. I hope for both of your sakes that this gets straightened out.

I like to watch my wife have sex and I like to have sex with a new partner. Also like to watch other people have sex.

Lionheart, we've had our shares of night's like that at the club. In fact, it isn't rare that we'll find a foursome at the club (or we've prearranged one) and an hour or two after we leave the room Mary will announce she's randy again. The solution: Find a single guy. There's always a few hanging out at 1:00 in the morning.

I'll start. We are a Lifestyle couple. We mostly enjoy foursomes and moresomes. However, my wife is also a 'hotwife', and we are happy to have a respectful single male join us for an MFM threesome; my wife will also 'solo' with a single male from time to time.

Back in our club days, we hooked up with a lot of single guys and, toward the end, my wife would go out to the club alone and hook up with single guys. On the whole, we found it was easier to find a single guy to hook up with than a couple. To state the obvious - with a couple, we needed to find a lady who was interested in me, and who I was interest in, as well as a guy my wife liked, who liked her. With a single guy, we basically needed a single guy in a swingers club who my wife liked the look of, who had a pulse.

I've have plenty of MFM experiences with the three men who I currently play with (the two in our family and us women's shared boyfriend) and when the mood is right for me (wanting to be taken as a pleasure giver for multiple men), really enjoy them. My preference, however, is for FFMs. I need to have my Lesbian side taken care of as frequently as my hetero side, and unlike MFMing, there are two flavors of FFM - where I'm the woman in the middle having the guy in me while licking the woman or where I'm jealously watching him do her while she licks me.

The term bi seems to be much broader than the old perception of being able to fall in love with either sex. I have fallen in love with a few females but never felt it even remotely with a man. I wouldn't say it's impossible, but it hasn't even come close. Most would consider me bi since I enjoy sucking men and have sucked more than a couple. I'm called orally bi. There have been threads here that castigated men who have sucked men and called themselves straight. I feel you can be straight and enjoy the taste of cock if your primary interest is women. I call myself bi because my sexual enjoyment of men is beyond a taste here and there. Yet am I bi if I couldn't feel equally toward a man as I do toward a woman? Should we call that fully emotionally bi? Once again labels just don't cut it. How the general public accepts non-monogamy is an interesting questions. Many can't. Many still feel it's cheating or has a taint even when done with consent. I feel it potentially opens a relationship up to levels of intimacy as deep as you wish to delve. By challenging what intimacy and sharing may contain, discoveries are possible, perhaps inevitable.

I've talked about this for years. I believe personally, without a doubt, that most men have a degree of bisexuality. We only look for bi guys and any site we have ever been on we get flooded with emails where the profile says straight, but the email says different. Most all of my friends growing up and even now, if the subject of bi comes up and I mention that I am...They become interested and start beating around the bush. Most guys do not list themselves as bi because they believe it will ruin opportunity for play with straight couples. It makes sense. Quite a few couples do have "NO BI MEN" right in their profiles. Since being bi, for many like myself, is just being flexible and not a must...They figure it is better to list as straight so they don't scare off those not wanting bi play, and then just explain to the ones that are.

I was at a sports bar with my sister over the holiday picking up some wings and overheard two couples talking about this every subject – couple swapping and how comfortable they all were around one another. When I heard one of the wives say how homophobic her husband was at first and how amazing it is that he now helps the other man put it in got me randied up. I sat down near them and when my sister came back from the restroom I turned red as a beet. They were talking about sucking penises together and how it was no big deal kissing back and forth after all the swapping and such. I wanted to ask them sooooooo many questions. My sister knew it and was vehemently shaking her head, pleading with her eyes for me not to speak up. Anyway it appeared they had been swapping among themselves for years and it possible took a few years for everyone to totally get comfortable with one another, especially the men. But it sounded as though they were all very comfortable now. And I mean VERY comfortable. Too bad I was an out of towner.

Some other thoughts came into my head about this. I hope I'm not writing too much. First, why is it so easy and expected for women to have sex with other women, but hard for guys to just get it off with another guy? With women, it's almost natural to hug and kiss each other, finger fucking and eating out is a small step. It's guys that have the reputation for being willing to just get it off without thinking. Don't know. Another thing is that a guy having sex with another guy helps him understand and get closer to his woman because he learns what it's like (both the good and bad) about having someone cum in your mouth or going at it in your ass. You learn both consideration and appreciation. Also, the rule should be to don't do anything if your not comfortable, but on the other hand don't be afraid to try something new. You need a little slow courage.

You're welcome, I'm glad that this can help anyone, these are just my experiences. It made it a lot more comfortable for me to have the women involved when i first started any interaction with a guy, I can tell you that. After you do it once or twice it becomes comfortable and good satisfying sex. I think you are the wife that wrote this, so my suggestion to you is to help your husband get ready but once only after he has a guy in mind he can see himself doing anything with. Then when it's just the two of you, you can fantasize together about the guy while you do it to him like sucking his dick, him doing anal on you, or you doing anal on him using a dildo. I didn't start this way, but my wife would sometimes fantasize like that after i did it a couple of times with her bi FB, and it made it good for both of us. Still, the best is when there's a woman part of it, like a guy and a wife sucking a dick together, or when one of us is fucking the other guys wife, the husband does the guy anal.

This describes me. Years ago I would never do anything with a guy, but that's changed, now I'll do both oral and anal with a guy, both giving and receiving, but just with two guys i know. It's for a couple of reasons, mostly being that the longer you do group sex with the girls with other guys around, you just become more comfortable with touching a guy. First just accidentally and casually, but then you might help a guy like get in a pussy, then you do it together. The other thing is the longer a couple is doing swinging, the more chance there is to find a other guy your comfortable with, and the more likely the girls are to have the guys do something together. It's really still just a very small part of our sex with other couples though, and only in very select circumstances.

I think there has always been A LOT of bi men who, for one reason or another, have been uncomfortable or afraid to come out bi. As a man who enjoys having sex with both men and women, I think it's great more are identifying as bisexual and a sign the times are changing. I was tentative when I first started bi activities and now most know I'm fully bi, which makes me feel great. I even had a friend come up to me and tell me he's bi and now feels comfortable telling people....big smile from me followed.

I agree that the percentage of bi guys hasn't changed, just the percentage of those willing to state it. In terms of your experience from the other guy, I don't really see that as a bi issue, more a boundary and respect issue. Same sex or opposite sex, one should never try something that you haven't already been given the ok to try.

I consider myself straight not seeking male on male only encounters, but over the last five years found I am very situationally bi with the right couple. My experience has been most couples list straight male & bi female, but over half have introduced bi male play after becoming comfortable with me. I have gone from being very straight to desiring to play with bi/bi curious couple's.

I would hazard a guess that has been no "increase in Bi men" but rather an increase in the willingness of men to openly self-identify as bisexual. As BiCaliGirl777 said, bisexuality has become more out in recent years. People are more comfortable admitting to themselves and others that they are not exclusively attracted to one gender. This is, in my not-so-humble opinion, a good thing. It sounds like the problem here is that, by your own statement, the fellow failed to admit he was bi. If he had admitted he was bi, they you could have discussed it before getting into bed and you could have let him know that you weren't into that. So, it seems to be that the problem isn't that there are more guys admitting they are bi but rather that there are still bi guys who don't admit it but still seek to act on it.

I know exactly how you felt in that situation. The exact thing happened to me when I was fucking a guys wife yes ago. Although, I don't think this guy was bi, it was just uncomfortable for him to touch me. This was during the time when SSW and I had really just got into the LS. Now, here is where things change!!! For about a little over a year now I have had bi tendencies and I'm very bi curios now. To the point where I'm going to me a bi guy next week for our first bi MMF threesome. I to think that it's just becoming more acceptable and people are just getting tired of labels. I've realized that if it feels good, then why not?

I think 'situationally bi' is a good label. We had an mmf last week with a straight guy. I had told him that I am orally bi and would probably have him in my mouth at some time, nothing more. He said he was trying to be comfortable with that and we agreed that we will just go with the flow and feel free to stop any activity that's uncomfortable. OK, so J is blowing him and I'm just stroking her and watching (this is about 1 minute after the clothes came off). He's just watching her as well. She pulls his cock out, grabs my hand and puts it on his cock. About 2 seconds later, he goes for my dick and without thinking, starts to suck me. This was in no way part of the plan. I think that in the beginning, we over think this stuff. You want an mmf, there is going to be some contact, so what. Are you going to puke if this guy blows you? No, you are going to think, damn, dudes give really good head!

Although I consider myself straight in playing with a few couples, I have found I am situationally bi with the right couple. I now look for bi couples with husbands who desire oral bi play. They just seem so much more open, sensual, and sexually turned on.

Welcome to the Swingers Board and thank you for such a detailed introduction. It was nice to have such a good backstory. Good luck with your endeavors and give us updates on how things develop. Remember, there is a first time for everything, and while it is good advice to take it slow, nothing ventured nothing gained. I'm a woman, but used to feel as you do - no bi play unless the guy was there. But I gave it a try, working my way from just mutually playing with each other's breasts, to sucking hubby's dick after it was inside her pussy, to finger fucking, to full-on eating her pussy (at first I justified it as well, I'm doing it to eat hubby's cum). Now bi play is an enjoyable part of my repertoire. Enjoy the adventure!