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What exactly is the difference between the two? What are the activities, limits and vibe of each?

My wife and I are looking for a getaway in about a month, our youngest is going to be going to college and we are looking forward to having a fun week somewhere in the US. (We want to be available if our kid needs to call us). We have been to the Trapeze in ATL and in FL and liked them (FL better). We are interested in getting everyone's opinion on their top 5 on premise clubs in the US. I guess I would base them on cleanliness, facilities, number of couples, etc. I have not really seen any lists like this, so I thought I would hit up the experts.

An On-premise club is one where they have provided space for the sexual activities (swinging) to actually occur at the place where the party is being held. An off-premise party is more like going to a bar.. you find someone and invite them back to your place to continue the fun (no sexual activity takes place at the party itself). What are your thoughts on which one is better? and why?

My girlfriend and I have been curious about the "lifestyle" for the past few years. We made the decision to take the first step and visit a local swing club this weekend. We have been discussing our limits for quite some time and decided for our first visit we are only going to have sex with one another. We have been researching "first time" stories and have found that they differ quite a bit. We decided to leave this thread to hopefully have a dialogue with those already in the lifestyle who can give us some advice on what we should expect. We would also appreciate any advice that anyone can offer. We are very excited about our upcoming visit and are trying to learn as much as possible before then. Thanks!

(Written by husband R) As I sit here thinking whether to make this short or long, I keep picturing the scenes in my head and they're so hot I have to be detailed. Please forgive me for my long-windedness. So we have been talking about the possibilities of swinging in some fashion off and on for about 2 1/2 years with the conversation picking up recently. We joined this site a while back to get as much information as possible. I have to say that some of the horror stories have probably contributed to the delay. I check out local events and saw that one club was having a sensual masseuse at the party on Saturday night. Knowing how my wife loves a good massage I asked if she'd like to go. Once I added us to the guest list, the anticipation and the butterflies started. As Saturday approached we wondered if we'd actually go. We decided that the worst that could happen is we'd go, really not like it and leave. We had decided a long time ago that at least in the beginning we would not get into a full-swap situation, but be open to soft swap. We discussed out boundaries on Saturday and determined we'd stick with a "2nd base" limit of kissing, fondling and same room sex with each other if it came to it. Since I'm far more comfortable with open sex than my wife, I told her I would follow her lead and let her dictate the pace. If she felt comfortable expanding her limits, we would do so as long as intercourse was between us. I told her what I would really love to see is her experience her first kiss with a woman. S has always talked about how it would feel to kiss, touch and taste a woman. She said as long as I'm there with her, she thought she could do it, but wasn't sure. We agreed that pretty much all female contact would be allowed. We packed up and headed to the party, S looking spectacularly hot in a new dress that clung to her squat-sculpted ass. We arrived when the doors opened so we could get a tour and pick a spot to observe as people arrived. We met and talked to the bartender who was great at mixing up my wife's drinks. More and more people started showing up, we said hello to some, but mainly watched. There were some who were obvious regulars and put on quite a show on the dance pole!! My wife went out to the main room to see if anything was happening and motioned for me to come out there. The masseuse had arrived and had a (nude) man on the table giving him a rub down. I'm sure she was doing a fantastic job as evidenced by his hard-on. She finished with him, gave his wife a massage (as her female friend kissed her and rubbed her pussy). After she finished she had an open table. I asked S if she was up for it. She asked what she should wear, I told her whatever she was comfortable in. She decided to strip to her bra and panties. As she got her back rubbed, the masseuse asked if she could unhook her bra, no problem there. When she turned her over, I reached to her and took her bra, a little surprised she'd leave her (bought and paid for) 34D breasts exposed. I was so glad she felt that secure. Her massage over, she put her clothes back on and we headed down the hall to see if anyone was in the playrooms yet. Much to our pleasure, there was a MFF group in one room along with some observers. We are voyeuristic and loved the show. I can always tell when S is getting turned on and seeing this in person for the first time was definitely doing the trick. We headed back to the bar for another drink as the place was filling up. We were enjoying the dancing and music and of course I was rubbing S's ass through her dress. We were trying to decide if we would approach anyone or just hang for the evening. We didn't have to make the choice after all. You may now take a brief intermission from our story. A couple came up to us and the husband (H) said, “you keep lifting your wife's skirt up and and then down, but never show enough of her great ass”. You want to make a good impression, tell S she has a great ass. Good move. They were friendly, funny and put us at ease immediately. We attempted to chat over the booming music and probably heard about every 5th word everyone was saying. Since we told them it was our first time at a club and really our first experience of any kind like this, they asked what we were looking for in the evening. We explained that we didn't have expectations, but did have limits. They did say that they are full swap but spent their first 6 years doing only soft swap and they understood boundaries fully. Another good move. I'd say we talked for about 30-40 minutes and they asked if we'd like to go to one of the rooms. I looked at S and she gave me the “good sign”, so we went and found an empty one. We were standing by the bed and I was talking to H's wife (W) and I heard H ask S if he could kiss her. I will be frank that I am very possessive and protective of S and I wasn't sure how I would react the first time. I'm glad to say it was far more of a turn-on and there were 0 pangs of jealousy. I turned to W and I could see she wanted the same. I kissed her slowly and deeply and moved to her neck. I kissed her ear and told her asked what she thought of female contact. She whispered that she is bi so it's all good. I told her about wanting to see S kiss a woman. She just smiled, turned to my wife who was still kissing H and pulled her away. She touched both sides of S's face and just leaned in and kissed her. S responded as I always knew she would, with passion. Fantasy #1 down. S went back to H for some more kissing (S REALLY loves kissing). W asked if it was in our limits to touch each others “better parts”, which I said it was. The next thing I knew I had both S's and W's hands rubbing me through my jeans, then S moved to H's. It was clear that what she was doing was having it effect on him. W asked me if I thought S would like to have all of us rub her. That is actually one of her top fantasies, to be lying on a bed, with multiple people massaging her body all over. H asked if he could unzip S's dress to get a better look at her butt, which she agreed to. She would look over to me periodically to make sure I was okay with whatever was happening and I always gave her a nod. H asked if we could take S's dress off, she said yes, that would be okay. When she was in her underwear, she suggested I take off W's dress as well, which I willingly did. She then said it was unfair that the guys were still dressed so the girls stripped us down. We laid S down on the bed and I asked her if I could take off her bra so we could rub her. H was on one side, I was on the other and W was straddling on of her legs. We all started rubbing her with H and I taking turns kissing her. I know S was in pure heaven. Fantasy #2 down. At this point we were pretty much as the limit of our boundaries and having a great time. We had discussed naked fondling of other people and that was pretty much where we cut it off. S had my cock in one hand and H's cock in her other while we caressed her. W leaned over to me and asked if it would be okay if she licked S. I asked S and she didn't hesitate a moment before saying, yes, that would be good. W is obviously experienced at this and it was a beautiful sight to see. I really wasn’t sure if S would allow a woman to go down on her, but she seemed fine with it and had her usual reaction. H and I continued to rub her and she pulled me closer to her mouth and started sucking me. A moment before it happened I knew what was coming next. She took her mouth off me, turned her head and put H in her mouth. H looked at me and asked if this was okay. I knew oral sex with others was beyond our boundaries for the night, but as I said, I was going let her set the pace and it was something she has talked about doing. And she looked so beautiful doing it. She continued back and forth on us while W brought her to her first orgasm. S is extremely multi-orgasmic and can cum in just about every way possible, but oral is her favorite. At this point she looked at me and told me that W was being neglected and I should give her some attention. I asked W to come up to the bed, which she did. She asked if I wanted her to suck me while I licked her, I told her no, I wanted her to focus on her pleasure. Truth is I was so turned on I probably would have came the second her lips hit me. :-) H replaced W's mouth with his fingers inside S. I went to work licking W and slid my finger into her. She was dripping wet, licking S had turned her on incredibly. I looked over at S once in awhile to watch her sucking H and he asked her if he could taste her, which of course she agreed to. He bent down to lick her soaked pussy. One thing I appreciated, he kept saying to me and W how gorgeous S is. I know she loved hearing it. W is very responsive to oral and tasted very good. I figured there was no time like the present to see how far S wanted to go. I told W that I was going to ask S if she wanted to lick W and she just smiled. I whispered to S, “would you like to take your turn at licking W, I'll be right there with you”. I thought she was going to say she wasn't ready but she just said, “Sure, I'll try”. We both made our way back to W and I went in first, with S right behind me. I have given her pointers on what to do if she ever tried it, but I don't think she needed them. Once she started licking, she was in W's words, “a quick learner”. She went after it I never thought she would even fingering W while she licked her. Once in a while she would turn and kiss me so I could taste W. I was enthralled watching S, I don't think she was ever more beautiful. H had made his way up to W and she was sucking him. I got behind S and knew exactly what she'd want so I started licking her and tonguing her ass, and fingering her, rubbing the spot I know drives her wild. All I could hear from W was moans and the occasional, “God she's really good at this” comment. I think S must have been down on her for 30 minutes. I haven't mentioned that during all of this, people were coming and going from the room to watch us, which made it all the hotter. I asked S later if she paid any attention to the crowd and she said once in a while she'd look over, but otherwise was too busy. S turned and said that it was about time I fucked her. W got up and as I entered S from behind, W crawled under her and started to lick her clit. I could feel her tongue lightly brush me as I went in and out. What a sensation. H moved back around to the front of S and she started rubbing and sucking him. I know this is one of our most frequented fantasies and I was thrilled to see her live it. I would alternate between fucking S and leaning down to kiss W and tongue fuck S. I know at this point S was just stroking H because she could not concentrate enough to suck him. W and I made her cum 3 or 4 times together. I told H I thought it was about time he take care of W, I could tell she was wanting to get fucked pretty badly. They moved to one side of the bed and he took her with her legs over his shoulders. I had one more thing in mind. I had S get up and I bent her over the bed behind H & W. I asked S to reach in and rub W while she was getting fucked. I could tell that feeling this heightened S's thrill level as she felt H sliding into W. I's swear we all 4 came abut the same time, and it was a glorious release. A few of the couples in the room watching told me how hot it had been to watch us. W told them it was S's first time and they said they'd never have guessed. We chatted for a bit until we figured maybe someone else would like the room so we dressed and went out for a cool drink and talked some more. We went back to the bar and watched some more people, then went back to H & W for more conversation. We ran into one of the couples that had watched us and talked for a long time. Turned out we have a lot in common with them and they said they wished they'd run into us first. We told them to email us and we'd go out for a drink sometime. His wife describes him as her caramel colored stallion, so we'll have to see what that's about. We chatted with the owner of the club too, to let him know how much we enjoyed the party and his place. We'll definitely be back. By the time we left it was going on 3:00am (we got to the party at 8:00) and we were exhausted. That didn't stop us from coming home, talking about what had happened to make sure everything was good and then having some more amazing sex. I asked S if she had any negative feeling or had experienced any jealousy, she said no, everything had been really great. I know we both truly appreciate the respect and care H & W showed towards us. They were not pushy but helped guide us and kept it light and fun. It was something we'll never forget. We had always discussed whether to make our first time with an experienced couple or newbies such as ourselves. I think it happened the right way and hopefully some day we'll do the same for other new couples. We've since had some great recap conversations of the experience and are looking forward to here we go from here. S said she absolutely loved how it turned out and really wants to keep the soft swap for the time being. I think we'll revisit our boundaries and move the lines accordingly. As for her first female experience, she said it was better than she expected and something she'll do again. She wants to find a single woman so they can focus effort on me, something I'm certainly not opposed to. I asked her about a single male, she said she has no need now and maybe we'll explore that later. I really don't see how it could have gone better, we were so totally afraid of having a bad first experience. I think I have to mark off about half a dozen of our fantasies as completed. So there's our story, I think I need a glass of juice and a nap now. All names have been omitted to protect the not-so-innocent. These forums were a wonderful place to educate ourselves on etiquette and what we could expect in general. R of RnS

We have been reading the forums for a long time. We have a question for those that go to the on premises and off premises clubs. How often do you see couples in their mid to late sixties?

Well, last night, the wife and I quit our dithering, delaying, and procrastinating, and finally went to our (semi-)local on-premise club, and joined up. Last evening was their Halloween party, costumes encouraged. The wife went as a "rockstar" girl, using a pair of leather pants, some boots she'd bought, and a silver drape top. I went the easy route, as her guard, with a black button down shirt, black pants, etc. The drive there, I was nervous, babbling about just about anything the whole way. Oddly, the wife was not nervous in the least (more on this later.) The club we were heading to is over the border in Canada, we fairly breezed through Canadian customs, and went on our way. Despite missing the driveway for the club, which is in a mansion outside of Windsor, we made it with no problems, getting there about 9:30pm. The valet (yes, valet parking at a swingers club!) took my key, and gave us our ticket. We went up, and in, no hesitation like our first visit. Check-in was uneventful, we had our own lock for the lockers, and tucked our play bag in the locker. First, some description of the club. As said, it's in a mansion, probably 2-3000 sq ft. Two floors, plus a basement. The basement has the locker / changing area (co-ed,) a shower, and a restroom (also co-ed) The main floor is the bar, kitchen, lounge, check-in, and dance floor. Outside, there's a hot tub. The second floor is the play areas, with a lounge / play area, semi-private beds (gauze curtains,) the "toy room" stocked with a swing, bondage cross, Sybian, and I think a massage table. There's also a private room; and the "orgy" room, which has one very large bed, and a Love Liberator Esse. There are also two restrooms, with showers on the second floor. Now, back to our adventure... We went back to the main floor, I grabbed a water from the bar. We did a little people watching, costumes seemed to run the gamut from, for the ladies, corsets with g-strings, thigh-highs, and a mask (think Eyes Wide Shut,) to just about any sexy costume you can buy at a lingerie shop. Men were everything from basic cowboys (hat, t-shirt, jeans,) to several Phantom of the Operas. The crowd definitely had energy, or so it seemed to me. While we were trying to come to grips with being at the club, at one point we had stepped out by the hot tub, the wife commented that there was a part of her going "what the HECK are we doing here," one of the hosts came around looking for "the other new couple," for the tour of the club. I piped up with "us," and apparently it wasn't us he was looking for, they didn't consider us "new." Happily, they didn't mind us joining the tour anyways. Afterward, we stepped back out by the hot tub, as it was getting rather warm in the club, from all the bodies. While out there, I overheard a conversation between the owner, concerning my favorite topic, computers! The wife teased me about this, at which point another guest asked what I thought of Win7. This led to a conversation with him, which I think helped me relax. The wife, in the meantime, was speaking with one of the new couples female half. The rest of the evening, we sort of wandered around, finally sort of "hiding" in the downstairs lounge. We went over to the dance floor for a bit, just to see what was going on, probably around 11-11:30ish. On the dance floor, we saw the owner, his wife (I think), and another couple dancing in a group. My wife seemed to change moods, after this. We stepped outside (quietest place for us to talk,) she indicated she wanted to leave, and she was trying to apologize for wanting to leave. We went and picked up our bag, gave the valet our ticket, and said good night to the hostess. Did we get up to the play areas? Nope. (the ride home next) Jason

So, once again, I was thinking (yes, I know, that explains the smell of burning around here... ) Namely, about what might be an easier first time outing to a club, for newbies. Obviously, there are several things that come into play in such a thing, but in general, here's what I thought... If the newbies are ready and willing to swap (soft or full,) then it doesn't really matter, off or on-premise. If, however, the newbies are not ready for any swap (myself and the wife,) then an on-premise might actually be a better choice. Here's my reasoning, see what you think. Going to an off-premise club, you've got a few things that would make the newbies potentially more nervous, as well as potentially opening them up for a somewhat more negative experience. First, if it's in a bar, unless it's a take over / closed door event, they have to be possibly concerned about someone they know wandering in. Second, as in order to play, you need to go to a hotel (either if it's attached to the bar in question, or at least nearby,) the newbs either need to spring for a hotel room, or hope someone would be willing to bring them along to watch / play separately (unlikely, I would expect) Now, quite likely, they'd meet people (we're presuming the newbies are at least outgoing enough to introduce themselves to others,) but once people start getting down to hooking up, the newbies would begin to find themselves excluded. Again, I can understand why the swappers would do this, they're interested in getting laid by someone other than their spouse, and the newbies in question won't help with that. Now, take those same newbies, and send them to an on-premise. It's much less likely they'd be concerned about someone they know wandering in, after all, if someone they know is there, it's pretty obvious why. As for the play, if the newbies feel up to it, they can wander around the play areas, just watching, or enjoy themselves in the play area. They'll still meet people, but I would think they'd be less likely to get excluded from conversations later, after all, the swingers there likely already have people they can hook up with, or have already played some, and are relaxing between rounds, and might be willing to put the newbies at ease. Cost wise, I would think it would be a wash between the options (presuming the newbies check in at the hotel), figure $60 for a hotel room + $20-30 for the event. On-premise, figure $75-100 for an event. Obviously, depending on the crowd at either on or off-premise, the newbies could end up with a markedly different experience than posited above. They could go to the off-premise, meet a group that is perfectly willing to take the newbies along back to the hotel (imagine the desk clerks face when 6+ people go by heading for one room!) and let them watch, and not mind the newbies playing off to the side. They could go to an on-premise, and have the misfortune of running into a bunch of cliques that feel that if you aren't willing to swap, they're going to brush you off / ignore you the rest of the night. Just some thoughts... Jason

Just reading the Menages Yahoo Group posts and it seems that as of last week they have now gone off-premise until further notice (and so has TSC, according to what is posted there). I'll post more once I can confirm directly what is going on. But from the sounds of it the Mayor is going after all adult venues and in an effort to stay ahead of the curve and give them less to go after the two on-premise clubs have decided to go off-premise. Here's the letter that was read to the club members last week:

Other than an on-premise club we visited in Mexico City that screened customers for attractiveness, we haven't been to any on-premise clubs or party houses in our area. However, we have several friends who have visited a local on premise party house and some on-premise clubs. They have all told us that almost everybody there was overweight and unattractive. We go to 2 local off premise clubs and the quality of the crowd seems to be pretty much evenly distributed from good-looking to skanky. In fact an article in a Houston mag about a fairly new on-premise club also referred to the patrons as skanky and said they were told the clientele has gotten older and heavier since it opened. My theory is that when an on-premise club that does not screen opens for business. What happens is the better looking couples will stop attending if unattractive and obese couples start attending, since they are not interested in playing with them. Of course, if you are unattractive you are not going to have a problem with attractive members. So what happens is the club eventually draws only unattractive couples. I would like to know if there are many on-premise clubs that screen for appearance, and if they do not, are all of the members unattractive and overweight.